Social Anxiety: How to Speak Up in Meetings | Q&A with Shadé

1. 0:00 – 0:50

   Why confident people freeze in groups: defining social anxiety at work

   1. SZDr. Shadé Zahrai0:00

      And then all of a sudden, they develop what, what's often known as social anxiety.

   2. DADaniella0:04

      Yeah.

   3. SZDr. Shadé Zahrai0:04

      So it comes from this excessive worry and this extreme fear of, of being watched. You know, unfortunately, there's no magic pill that we can take to just make us feel confident. But I can definitely say I can relate. The next time I'm in a meeting and I'm feeling anxious and I haven't said anything, I'm just going to ask a question. When we do that, when we take these small steps, what happens is we're almost desensitizing ourselves to the fear. [upbeat music] Hi, I'm Shadé Zahrai, and I help professionals to hack their careers, overcome their limiting beliefs, and confidently create the extraordinary life they deserve. Hello, Daniella. It is so wonderful to meet you and connect with you. Thank you for submitting such a wonderful question, which we thought many people would be interested in. So tell us what your question was.

2. 0:50 – 2:34

   Daniella’s situation: knowing the answer but going silent in meetings

   1. DADaniella0:50

      Well, my question was that, um, actually, when I'm, uh, sitting in meetings with, uh, lots of people, and lots for me is just 10 and then more, um, I just have a big fear to speak. And, uh, actually, I find myself, like, um, frozen in situations where people ask questions and I know the answers. And actually, I have really interesting things to say in my mind, in my brain. It's working really, really fast, and I'm really happy to say something, but then suddenly I cannot. And, uh, well, it's, it's quite, it's quite, uh, frustrating.

   2. SZDr. Shadé Zahrai1:27

      Mm, and it's such a great one to touch on because so many people are impacted by this fear of speaking up.

   3. DADaniella1:34

      Yeah.

   4. SZDr. Shadé Zahrai1:34

      Whereas in their individual lives in... when they're with just a couple of people, they're actually... they're, they're very happy to share and, you know, they could be the life of the party.

   5. DADaniella1:41

      Yeah.

   6. SZDr. Shadé Zahrai1:41

      And then all of a sudden-

   7. DADaniella1:42

      Yeah

   8. SZDr. Shadé Zahrai1:42

      ... they develop what, what's often known as social anxiety.

   9. DADaniella1:46

      Yeah.

   10. SZDr. Shadé Zahrai1:46

       So it comes from this excessive worry and this extreme fear of, of being watched, being judged, potentially being scrutinized, or maybe doing something that lead to embarrassment. It's, it's actually more common than we'd think. But it, it stems from that real fear of judgment that a lot of people have. And, you know, as humans, we're, we're driven to seek out social validation and approval because we're social creatures.

   11. DADaniella2:12

       Mm.

   12. SZDr. Shadé Zahrai2:12

       So we very much have a deep-seated desire and a need to fit in. So when we develop this sort of social anxiety, it makes it so challenging for us because then all we want to do is escape, run away from the situation, not say anything, and then we're left in a position of almost regret. Why didn't I say that? I had so many things to be able to share.

   13. DADaniella2:31

       [laughs] Yeah.

   14. SZDr. Shadé Zahrai2:31

       So we completely hold ourselves back and sabotage-

   15. DADaniella2:34

       Yeah. Mm

3. 2:34 – 2:50

   Career cost of staying quiet: visibility, credibility, and contribution

   1. SZDr. Shadé Zahrai2:34

      ... which can be really damaging in, you know, obviously, in the work context when we're trying to elevate our credibility and be seen as a contributor.

   2. DADaniella2:42

      Yeah.

   3. SZDr. Shadé Zahrai2:42

      Unfortunately, if you're not speaking, people don't see you, you don't get the visibility-

   4. DADaniella2:47

      Okay

   5. SZDr. Shadé Zahrai2:47

      ... and you lose the credibility and the confidence-

   6. DADaniella2:49

      Yeah

   7. SZDr. Shadé Zahrai2:49

      ... in other people.

   8. DADaniella2:50

      Yeah. Yeah.

4. 2:50 – 3:42

   No “magic pill”: normalizing the experience with Shadé’s personal story

   1. SZDr. Shadé Zahrai2:50

      So I think it's a brilliant, brilliant question. I, I wanted to cover a couple of, um, suggestions that, that might actually help. The very first thing to be aware of is this kind of anxiety that people have around speaking up. Y- you know, unfortunately, there's no magic pill that we can take to just make us feel confident. But I can definitely say I can relate. Because when I first started in my career, I remember the experience of sitting in meetings with, you know, more than 10 people. A question would be asked, I would know the answer.

   2. DADaniella3:19

      [laughs]

   3. SZDr. Shadé Zahrai3:19

      As soon as my head said, "You know the answer, you should speak," all of a sudden my body was sabotaging. My heart was racing.

   4. DADaniella3:27

      [laughs]

   5. SZDr. Shadé Zahrai3:27

      My mind went blank, and then-

   6. DADaniella3:29

      Yeah

   7. SZDr. Shadé Zahrai3:29

      ... I couldn't even say anything. So if I had put my hand up and they said, "Yes, Shadé," I would've-

   8. DADaniella3:33

      Yeah

   9. SZDr. Shadé Zahrai3:33

      ... not been able to actually share anything, or even if I shared something, it wouldn't have made sense and my voice wouldn't have projected.

   10. DADaniella3:39

       [laughs] Yeah.

   11. SZDr. Shadé Zahrai3:39

       So we, we have this thing. I can definitely relate, and I know how challenging it is. You know?

   12. DADaniella3:42

       Yeah.

5. 3:42 – 4:13

   Step 1: Spot the thought loop driving the fear

   1. SZDr. Shadé Zahrai3:42

      So we want to look at moving past it. So the very first thing is that we wanna pay attention to our thoughts. What are we actually telling ourselves? What is it within us that is holding us back? Is it this view of, "Oh, well, if I say something, it might come out wrong and it will appear foolish. People will think I'm incompetent or silly or stupid"? What is that thought pattern that's going on? What's the narrative that we're trying to push? Once we've paid attention to it, we can start to identify whether we might be doing one of two things,

6. 4:13 – 5:01

   Cognitive distortions: catastrophizing and personalizing

   1. SZDr. Shadé Zahrai4:13

      which are cognitive dis- distortions.

   2. DADaniella4:16

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SZDr. Shadé Zahrai4:16

      So the first one is called catastrophizing, where we will take something that's relatively small and blow it out of proportion. And this happens a lot where, let's say, you were in one meeting at one point and you said something and it wasn't received very well, and you feel like it's the end of the world. You feel like it's career suicide. No one's going to see you as respectable anymore. So that's, that's one thing. We will often blow things-

   4. DADaniella4:40

      Yeah

   5. SZDr. Shadé Zahrai4:40

      ... out of proportion. The second one is called personalizing, and personalizing is where, where we, we basically assume that people are thinking negatively about us a lot when in actual fact they're not. They're busy with their lives and doing their things. But we will personal- personalize and basically assume everyone is constantly judging us.

   6. DADaniella5:01

      Mm-hmm.

7. 5:01 – 5:36

   Challenge the thoughts and replace them with rational responses

   1. SZDr. Shadé Zahrai5:01

      So that's the very, very first step. What is going on in my mind? What are my thoughts repeating to myself? Then the next step is, okay, I'm going to question these thoughts. Are these correct? Is there validity to them? Generally, the answer will be no. Generally, you will say, "Well, no, they're irrational. I, I know I shouldn't be feeling this way." But it's important to actually analyze the thoughts and then determine these are irrational thoughts. These are illogical thoughts. They don't make any sense. But that's an important step for us in terms of moving forward. From there, you want to actually come up with a rational response to those thoughts.

   2. DADaniella5:36

      Mm.

8. 5:36 – 7:31

   Daniella’s inner conflict + research: negativity bias and speaking affirmations out loud

   1. SZDr. Shadé Zahrai5:36

      So what is a thought that you might have in your mind when you're sitting in a meeting and you don't speak?

   2. DADaniella5:42

      Well, what goes through my mind is, um, "Just come on. Say something. Yeah, come, say something. I can do it. I can do it." But actually I say, "No, I just, I just prefer not to say anything." Just, it's very comfortable just to close my mouth and just be quiet. This is actually what I'm dealing with, yeah.

   3. SZDr. Shadé Zahrai5:59

      So you do have one side of you that's saying, "Go on, you can do it." But there's this other side of you that says, "Just stay, stay comfortable, stay gray." [laughs] That way no one'll, no one will notice you. No one will see you. Exactly. Exactly. So- That's, that's exactly it, yeah ... this is a good one. So you've already got that positive affirmation, the self-belief, but this other side of you is stronger. Yeah. And interestingly, there's some research that came out of Georgetown University, Christine Porath was looking into it. Negative thoughts are four to seven times more powerful than positive thoughts. Makes sense. Mm-hmm. And perfect example, you know, "You can do it. Daniella, you can do it." And then you've just got this negative thought that completely squashes it. Yeah. Positive statements when said out loud, though, are 10 times more powerful than when we keep them in our heads. So this is a- Mm ... really interesting piece to be aware of. Taking this to the next level is actually coming up with a rational response to this thought you have, this thought of, "Just stay comfortable, don't say anything. That way you're not risking anything." Yeah. You wanna come up with a rational response to that, and that rational response could be something like, "Well, actually, yeah, I know that I might be more comfortable if I don't say anything, but I am competent, I am capable, I have a strong track record of being able to add value. I believe in myself." And the idea is you wanna start to repeat these to yourself, verbalize them to yourself regularly. Okay. In front of the mirror, when you're brushing your teeth, when you're getting ready, when you're going to work. Repeat them to yourself so it starts to form a default, a default way of thinking, a default way of acting.

9. 7:31 – 8:31

   Step 3: Stay present—focus on others to stop spiraling in your head

   1. SZDr. Shadé Zahrai7:31

      Tip number three is all about when you're in the moment, when you're speaking with someone or speaking in a group, try and be really present, really present, and focus on what people are saying. So step number three is all about focusing on other people, but not what you think they're thinking about you. Yeah. It's actually just being in the moment with other people, 'cause the moment that we go into our heads, it is game over. [laughs] And also what happens is, you know, we've all experienced this, you, y- you just, you know, once you get in here, it's impossible to almost get out, and then you actually miss what's happening. But if you can encourage yourself to be entirely focused, what are people saying? What's their body language doing? So you start to analyze it beyond just what the words are. Start to assess. Mm. What's going on here? What can I see? And this will prevent you from getting into your head. So that's a useful- Okay ... one as well. Focus on being present. And if you do share something, focus on the act of being curious or adding value. Okay. Not from the perspective of, how are people going

10. 8:31 – 9:31

    Step 4: Use breathing to calm the fight-or-flight response

    1. SZDr. Shadé Zahrai8:31

       to perceive me? How are they going to see me? We wanna focus entirely on, what am I sharing and how am I adding value? Tip number four is a basic one, and it's to do with breath. Because when we are anxious, nervous, fearful, we, um, we don't breathe. And I know this because I remember in those meetings, even when I would put my hand up to say something, the minute they would say, "Yes, Shadé," my heart rate would be going through the roof. I would actually struggle- Oh ... to get breath in. [laughs] Yeah, yeah. So this is, you know, the body's sort of fight or flight mechanism. It's trying to protect us, and we g- we breathe very shallowly, which is not helpful. Mm. So in the moments where you feel the emotion bubbling, you take those deep rhythmic breaths- Okay ... really deep into the diaphragm, because this signals to the central nervous system that you're okay, you're safe, you're not in a position- Mm ... of danger. Because the reality is your body is perceiving that threat of judgment or criticism, it's perceiving that as danger. It is a threat- Yeah

11. 9:31 – 14:04

    Step 5: Rebuild self-worth and face fear in graded steps (desensitization plan)

    1. SZDr. Shadé Zahrai9:31

       ... to the subconscious mind. And so you're responding in ways to try and help you survive or protect yourself, but it's sabotaging you from taking action. So breath is really important and we often really forget about it. Uh, but- Oh ... definitely a good reminder. Okay, number five. Number five is a good one. Number five is all about action. So when it comes to fears, and this, it's actually good that you mention this because you said that you had this, this fear that developed from speaking up in Germany because you're a native- Yeah ... la- you know, you speak Spanish. Yeah. So you're speaking y- a second language. How many languages can you speak, by the way? Only three. It, amazing. I can do one. [laughs] So already, you know, that, that's amazing. You've gotta recognize this is a skill that I have. [laughs] But you've taken this experience or this, this fear that you have in, um, being in a foreign country- Yeah ... and it's actually translated back when you're back in a- Yeah ... a Spanish-speaking environment. And this often happens because- Mm-hmm ... we, so it's something called self-verification theory, where we unknowingly or subconsciously recreate environments based on our perception of ourself. So something has happened along the way where you've had so many experiences of being in meetings where you haven't spoken or haven't felt comfortable, and that's become a part of your sense of self. And so now that you're back, you've actually lost your sense of confidence when it comes to speaking. You know rationally it should be there. You don't feel it. Yeah. Yeah. So step number five is all about, well, actually, there's kinda two parts to step number five. [laughs] Step number five is to make sure that you're doing things to reinforce your sense of self-worth. Mm-hmm. And it might be consciously reminding yourself of your successes, of your achievements, of everything you've done in the past. You know, we're human, we forget. You wanna consciously remind yourself that you are credible, you are competent, you have a strong track record of achievement and success. That's the first part. The second part is we wanna face it, because when we don't face it, it just gets worse. We recreate that environment, and then we actually develop a really, really deep fear of something, and we will avoid it at all costs. So one thing that helps is come up with a little strategy where you say, "Okay, I'm going to have a five-part strategy." It can be 10, it can be whatever, but let's say a five-part strategy. The first part of this strategy is, the next time I'm in a meeting and I'm feeling anxious and I haven't said anything, I'm just going to ask a question. Okay. I'm just going to ask a question. I don't have to have thought of anything. I don't need to share any ideas. Mm-hmm. I'm just gonna pick up on what someone has said and either say, "That's very interesting. Can you tell me more about that?" Or, "Can you elaborate on that?" Basic. Start with that. Okay. You can do that a couple of times until that's easy. Okay. Then the next step, you think, "Okay, I can do that. I can do the question part. What's the next piece? Well, you know what? I'm going to say one thing, just one thing in the meeting, and maybe I'll prepare what that one thing is going to be so I'm confident I know what it is." 'Cause the other thing as well, this fear often comes from not knowing what we're going to say. Yeah. And in those moments, we get the mental blank, can't think with logic, rationality- Yeah ... and so we don't present ourselves well. So if you can prepare what you're going to say, the idea that you will share, then at least, again, it's, it's more challenging, but it's not a huge jump. And so by having these little steps that you take, they're kind of, they're almost like mini milestones that you set for yourself to slowly- Mm-hmm ... face into it and slowly bring your confidence back. It can really help. And, you know, this might take you months to get through the five steps. It could take you a week- Yeah ... to get through the five steps, but it's just about continually reminding yourself that you can, and you will- Mm. Mm ... and it's on your timeline. Mm. So that's really important. Um, when we do that, when we take these small steps, what happens is we're almost desensitizing ourselves to the fear. Mm. Because you'll start with your easy first step, which is, "I'm going to ask a question." Mm-hmm. And you will ask the question, and you might be very nervous the first time you do it, but then at the end of it, you'll think, "Okay, that wasn't that bad. I did it." [laughs] Yeah. "That's okay." Okay. And then the next time you do it, it gets easier. And then the next time, it gets easier. And then you move to level two, and you say, "Okay, I'm going to contribute." And the first time might be, you know, anxiety-fueled. And then you think, "Oh, it wasn't that bad. People responded quite positively. I'll do it again." Mm-hmm. So we're going through this process of- Okay ... getting us closer to where we need to be, but still being compassionate [laughs] enough and not diving straight into it. Yeah. Now, the other thing I wanted to share, which is an interesting one, that came from a psychotherapist that I follow. [lips smack] She suggested that if you have a lot of anxiety in

12. 14:04 – 15:04

    Managing persistent worry: the ‘worry book’ and scheduled worry time

    1. SZDr. Shadé Zahrai14:04

       terms of f- you know, let's say that you're constantly thinking about this, the fact that, "Why aren't I speaking up? This is bad for my career. This is bad for how I'm perceived," and then you start to develop an, um, a constant state of worry, even outside- Mm ... of work. This can be really damaging on many, many levels. Mm. Yeah. And so what this psychotherapist recommends is to have a little worry book, a worry book or a, a notebook or something where you basically capture all of your concerns. You write them down. Whenever something pops into your head, you actually write it down. But here's the interesting part. You say, "Okay, during my day, I'm going to allocate 45 minutes to pull out my book and worry about all the things that I need to worry about. And then when- Okay ... the 45 minutes is done, I'm going to put the book away, and I don't need to worry about it. And if something comes to me to worry about, I'm going to write it in the book, and I've scheduled that time. I've got that time each day." And it, it almost provides this mental or emotional separation between what you're experiencing,

13. 15:04 – 16:01

    Wrap-up: compassion, timelines, and steady progress

    1. SZDr. Shadé Zahrai15:04

       because you have an outlet for it, and you've scheduled in that time. You might find that, you know, you don't even need that 45 minutes to worry about it. It might just be a five minute. But it also reminds you to focus on what you can control, and then take- Mm ... the right kind of action- Mm ... so you can help yourself as you go through this journey. So- Yeah ... you know, many things here. But I genuinely hope that something from there will be beneficial for you. I'm sure it's going to help everyone else who actually watches and listens, 'cause I'm sure they all experience very similar- Yeah ... things as well. It's been great. And thank you really much. Thank you. Thank you so much, Daniella. It's been an absolute pleasure to connect with you and hear more about your challenges and what you're experiencing, and I genuinely hope that some of these tips will help you. Bye. Good to. Bye-bye. [upbeat music]

Episode duration: 16:02