How to Tell If Fear Is Protecting You or Holding You Back | Extreme Athlete Nelly Attar

Simon Sinek 0:00 There's external risk here. There's real risk, right? Of getting in actual trouble. What was so important that it was worth taking real risk?

Nelly Attar 0:09 If you don't try, you'll never know. If you don't try, you'll never know, and I think that if I don't try, that would kill me. And so in my mind, I kept thinking, as scared as I was, not just from, like, potential repercussions, but also the embarrassment. And I don't wanna look back one day and say, "I wish, I wish I tried."

Simon Sinek 0:28 Fear is the reason most of our dreams stay dreams. We're afraid we'll fail. We're afraid we'll embarrass ourselves, or we're afraid we're just not ready. And then there's Nelly Attar. I heard her speak at TED 2026, and I knew I had to have her on the show. Not because she's fearless. It's because of what she does with her fear. Nelly is a psychologist turned extreme athlete and mountaineer. She built Saudi Arabia's first dance studio, MOVE, before women could even do that kind of thing publicly. She's climbed Mount Everest, and she's the first Arab to summit K2, a mountain so dangerous to climb that one in four people who try never come home. But here's the thing that inspires me. Nelly has found a way to turn individual acts of accomplishment into acts of service. She kept her dance studio open for the women who showed up, the women who took the risk just to walk in the door, and she climbs impossible mountains to show women that they can achieve anything they put their mind to. She even looks out for the Sherpas who hike with her to make sure that they are safe and taken care of. There is so much we can all learn from how Nelly lives her life. If you like this episode, please remember to subscribe. This is A Bit of Optimism. Nelly, uh, thank you so much for taking the time to be on the podcast.

Nelly Attar 2:03 Simon, thank you for having me.

Simon Sinek 2:05 When I saw your, uh, talk on the main TED stage, I was completely inspired by who you are, how you show up in the world, and it's why I invited you on to talk. I know you're in Dubai right now, but you live in Saudi Arabia, right?

Nelly Attar 2:20 I live between Dubai and Saudi Arabia.

Simon Sinek 2:22 And can you remind me, mainly 'cause I forgot-

Nelly Attar 2:25 No worries

Simon Sinek 2:26 ... the d- the dance club [laughs] that you started in Saudi, just remind me how that came about because it is not something that most people would expect to happen in Saudi Arabia, at least where, where I sit in the US.

Nelly Attar 2:41 This is about, like, 13 years ago. I started off my career as a psychologist. I was born and raised in Saudi, left the country to complete my higher education, and then I came back, thinking I am going to get a couple of years experience in psychology and then go do my PhD. So I started off my career as a psychologist, and when I came back, I realized the sports landscape still hasn't changed. Access to sports was really, really difficult, especially for women. And honestly, I just wanted to move. I wanted to move, and I thought, "You know, maybe I can start something, start some sort of class to get people active and also stay active." And it started with dance classes. I got certified, and I started teaching from the hospital I was working at, and that alone was a risk. That in itself was a risk. I took the risk, and I delivered my first set of classes from the hospital, and it was received really positively, and so that's where it started. And then I carried on, eventually moved to different places wherever I could, enclosed neighborhoods, embassies.

Simon Sinek 3:47 Why was it a risk?

Nelly Attar 3:48 Because organized sports for women was not in the norms. I don't think it was even allowed. Female gym licensing didn't exist, so officially, women didn't really participate in sports at the time.

Simon Sinek 4:01 Okay, and this was for patients or for hospital staff?

Nelly Attar 4:05 This is hospital staff.

Simon Sinek 4:07 Okay. Amazing.

Nelly Attar 4:08 And at the time, music was not allowed in public spaces either, so there was, you know, both angles. I wasn't sure how it was going to be received. And I think it really, really impacted people, and so I carried on and, you know, like, with, with every next step, another step would open, and so I moved on to friends, parents of friends, friends of friends. Eventually, in 2016 or 2017, I signed with Nike as their first trainer in the kingdom. And even then, we were not sure how to announce it because, you know, w- we had to dance with the norms. We're not sure if it was allowed, it wasn't allowed. And this is what inspired the space. My stepdad had an empty warehouse in his office building that he wasn't using, so he was like, "Nelly, why don't you start teaching from this space? Gather your friends, and instead of moving all around the city, you know, just have that one space." So a couple days later, I shifted all my classes from that space, and initially, it was free classes, and it was a mixture of dance and fitness sessions. And I was just testing the water to see, like, what is this gonna look like? What is this gonna be? With no, like, really no plan of this becoming a dance studio. Fast-forward to about four or five months later, it turned into Saudi Arabia's first dance studio.

Simon Sinek 5:27 This is amazing.

Nelly Attar 5:28 So... Yeah.

Simon Sinek 5:28 And, and the, the risk that you took, h- how secretive did you have to be when you advertised this and you got people to come? Was it word of mouth? Could you be public about it?

Nelly Attar 5:37 Good question because... So it was mainly through word of mouth, so a lot of this was through friends and my network, but I did create a public Instagram account for the dance studio called MOVE, and that was not allowed. Even that was not allowed. Showcasing women training and showcasing women dancing was not allowed. And there were a lot of instances during that period where women were posting about training and showcasing training that would get into trouble. Really, I wasn't sure how this was going to be received, if I was gonna get into trouble, so I actually avoided telling people that this was my place. I didn't associate my name, my brand name, with the dance studio. For the longest time, I didn't want people knowing that I was running this space, and it was in an office building, so that was also like, you know, not allowed. Like, it was in an office building full of men, so we would wait for the men to leave before we could sneak in to move. But Simon, it was just really like taking small risks here and there, seeing what people were okay with, and it was-- We were still respecting the norms. Like, we didn't do anything that was completely out of the ordinary. It was getting people to move and getting people to see that dance is-

Simon Sinek 6:43 So you weren't being flagrant about it. You were still being respectful. Like you said, the women weren't moving around the men. You waited for the men to leave work that day-

Nelly Attar 6:50 Yeah

Simon Sinek 6:50 ... and then the women would come into the warehouse afterwards. So you were still, pardon the pun, but dancing around the norms.

Nelly Attar 6:57 Ex-exactly. Exactly, and that's, I think that's how we got away with it. And then imagine that it couldn't have been a better time. That was the period that Saudi started to change. That was when the national transformation started to happen. So female gym licensing was launched. Women could now drive. That was the same year. They launched the, the Saudi Ministry of Sports. So there was a whole transformation and a massive attention being paid to sports, and them trying to get women integrated into the society and work. And so it was right around the time that we, you know, became a thing, and so we went from being an underground community to then partnering with the government to launch national dance programs all across the country.

Simon Sinek 7:41 Is it still going?

Nelly Attar 7:42 No, I ended up closing the studio

Nelly Attar 7:45 during COVID.

Simon Sinek 7:45 So what, what was so important that it was worth-- I mean, you were risking getting in trouble doing these things. What made it worth these risks?

Nelly Attar 7:55 The impact.

Simon Sinek 7:56 I mean, but you could just do word of mouth. You could just tell people, "Hey, you know, when you're all alone at home, you know, move." There are other ways to inspire and encourage people to move, but taking the risk to bring people together in common space to dance together, listen to music, even just starting in the hospital. Like, what was so important to you as a psychologist that it was worth taking this risk to lead these dance classes at, i-in the hospital and then eventually in the warehouse?

Nelly Attar 8:26 Because if you don't try, you'll never know. If you don't try, you'll never know, and I think that if I don't try, that would kill me. And so in my mind, I kept thinking, as scared as I was, not just from like potential repercussions, but also the embarrassment. Like, are people gonna like my classes? Am I gonna even know how to teach dance? I'm not a professional dancer. And Simon, I made so many mistakes along the way, but it was, "If I don't try, how will I know?" And I don't wanna look back one day and say, "I wish, I wish I tried." And it's crazy 'cause when you do try, things start to open up, and that rewards me. Like, that was the reward to try even more and try even more.

Simon Sinek 9:05 Let's go out of Saudi Arabia, right? Someone here might have a dream of opening a dance studio, right? And the fear of failure, the fear of embarrassment may hold them back. There's a lot of people with ambitions to try things that come up with reasons why they shouldn't do it, right? And you're saying, "But I had to try. I had to find out." But now let's add in the Saudi Arabia component, where there's actually real risk, not just the fear of embarrassment or the fear of failure, which are internalized things. There's external risk here. There's real risk, right, of getting in actual trouble. And so I appreciate the traditional, you know, overcoming the entrepreneurial jitters. Like, I just had to find out. It was worse not to find out. I get that. But my question is, is what was so important that it was worth taking real risk? Because most entrepreneurs don't have real risk associated with starting their business. I mean, they may lose some money, but if they're responsible, they're not gonna bankrupt themselves, you know?

Nelly Attar 10:12 Great question. So that would change along the way, but I think initially, I was always afraid of leading a life that was average or boring. And I spent most of my life growing up in Saudi, where we didn't have access to sports. We didn't really have access to movement. And so coming back and working in Saudi, I mean, of course, I was really grateful. There are many great things that Saudi offers, but I did feel like life was very monotonous, and I was still, you know, in my early twenties, and I love dance, and I just, I love being active, so this idea came about. And I thought, "Okay, maybe I can combine dance with teaching people after working hours, and that gives me something to do." So that was the initial, I think, driving force. And then when I taught my first set of classes, which by the way were, were horrible, I made so many mistakes, forgot the routines, but even with that, I saw what people left with. They were so excited. It was different. They've never done something like this. And so then that became another driving force, the impact that that started to create for a woman.

Simon Sinek 11:16 So the naivete of the first class-

Nelly Attar 11:19 Yeah

Simon Sinek 11:20 ... then seeing the impact that it had on people's lives became more important than the risk associated. Is that right?

Nelly Attar 11:31 Yes.

Simon Sinek 11:34 So it's, I mean, this is the core of what it means to do anything with purpose, right? Whatever kind of thing we do in our lives and the impact it has on other people's lives and the reward we get from seeing the impact we have in people's lives becomes more important, becomes more of the driving force than any risks associated with not doing it, or the risk associating of doing it, I should say. That makes sense now. It's not like you sat down and sort of calculated the risk. It's that you did something very small, you saw the impact, and you said, "I want more of this." Is that what I'm hearing?

Nelly Attar 12:08 Exactly. And I think this is what got me as well to climb mountains, not really thinking of all the, the risks and the what-ifs and, and, and. There was a driving force, and I just started to, like, dabble with that idea. And I must say, it's also the people that I was surrounded by. If my family didn't push me as well-

Simon Sinek 12:30 Yeah

Nelly Attar 12:30 ... my family believed in this, and they pushed me into doing it and taking the risk. If they didn't, I don't know if I would have started.

Nelly Attar 12:37 But I did have that support system, and so it was kind of like an emotional and mental buffer. I had people to talk to about this, especially when it was embarrassing, especially when-

Simon Sinek 12:46 Yeah

Nelly Attar 12:46 ... it didn't go as planned. And then my community started to become that buffer for me.

Simon Sinek 12:52 Yeah.

Nelly Attar 12:53 You know? And it's, it's really that support system that helped me take that extra step always.

Simon Sinek 13:00 I think this is such a great point and so underappreciated, which is there's no such thing as the self-made dot dot dot. You know, the self-made millionaire, the self-made business owner. This idea of being self-made is complete nonsense, and though you get the credit because you're the front person and you were the actual person who stuck your neck out, at the end of the day, you said it, which is if you didn't have the support, the love of at least one person, in your case, you were lucky to have more from your family, who have your back and say, "No matter what, we're there with you. We got you." Like, I, I think people underappreciate that the courage to do these difficult things is, and maybe I was wrong before. Maybe it's not just tasting the purpose, tasting the impact, but it's as important, if not more important, that you also had the support structure of loving friends and family who held space for you and encouraged you, and you knew that if you failed, you would still have love in your life and support in your life, that, that it, it sort of de-risks when you have love and support. I think that's, uh, so underappreciated, you know, the importance of, of community and friends and loving family when, when we take these kinds of big steps. And speaking of big steps, you climbed Everest.

Nelly Attar 14:10 Yes.

Simon Sinek 14:11 I, now, this, I think, I think people who climb Everest, and this is where I need you to dispel the myth, I think it's a very, very, very selfish pursuit. There is no social benefit. Maybe you're raising money for charity. You know, some people do that, I guess. You spend hundreds of thousands of dollars very often. The risk to your life is extremely high, and very often these people have families, you know, when they take these risks. Their families don't want them to do it very often, but they do it because it's, "I have to prove that to myself that I can do it." And sure, I get it. I understand all of that narrative, but I, I, I just find the idea of needing to do something that dangerous just for self-glory. Why did you climb Everest? [laughs]

Nelly Attar 14:59 Great intro to the question. I'm not sure what to say.

Simon Sinek 15:03 I wanna know the drive. I mean-

Nelly Attar 15:05 Okay

Simon Sinek 15:05 ... was it for you? Was it for other people? Like, it's a cynical setup, but a genuine question.

Nelly Attar 15:10 Right.

Simon Sinek 15:10 Somebody who, who undertakes that extremely difficult thing that has extreme danger, and the question is, for what purpose? Where were you when you said, "I think I'm gonna climb Everest"?

Nelly Attar 15:24 Okay. I, I remember exactly where I was. I was sitting and having dinner with a friend in my favorite restaurant at the time, and he's a friend that I met through one of the climbs, one of the climbs that I was, that I led. I organized trips every now and then, and we ended up climbing a lot together in the Alps and Uganda, all across the world. So three years into our friendship, we're sitting, and he was like, "Nelly, we need to do something bigger next year." And this was three months after we came back from climbing the highest peak in South America, Aconcagua. And so I'm like, "Okay, what's next?" And he was like, "Let's do Everest." And I was thinking, "What? Are you out of your mind? I have no interest in climbing Everest, one. Two, I don't think we're ready. I haven't gone beyond 6,000 meters, and this is just next year. Like, we're talking about next year. Like, no, it's insane."

Simon Sinek 16:10 How many meters is, uh, Everest, just for comparison?

Nelly Attar 16:13 8,848 meters.

Simon Sinek 16:16 Okay.

Nelly Attar 16:17 The highest point in the world. And-

Simon Sinek 16:19 29,000 and some odd, some odd feet

Nelly Attar 16:21 ... I just thought like, "What an absurd idea. Yeah, I wanna do something big, but no, like, climbing Everest is just absurd." I go back home that night, and I couldn't sleep, Simon. I was like this in bed. And then that's when I knew that, you know what? Maybe it's not a bad idea. So I got up the second day, and I went and asked my mom, "Mom, what do you think? Would, would you be okay with this?" And Simon, this comes after four years of climbing a lot, doing a lot of extreme sports. So after dance, I got into long-distance running, ultra running, triathlons, and climbing, and so this idea didn't just come from nowhere. And my mom liked the idea. She was like, "Why not? Yeah, I believe you can do it." And that was it. I don't think she realized what Everest was, bless her, but then that's all I needed to hear. And so then I told my friend, "Okay, let's look into it." And that's when we decided to do Everest. That was May 2018, and then April 2019, we were, you know, in Nepal, starting off our journey on Everest.

Simon Sinek 17:23 And did you succeed after your first attempt?

Nelly Attar 17:26 Yeah. Alhamdulillah. We succeeded.

Simon Sinek 17:28 Wow.

Nelly Attar 17:30 But Simon-

Simon Sinek 17:30 Okay

Nelly Attar 17:31 ... Everest isn't what's, you know... From, I think, my climbing experience, Everest is definitely not one of the harder mountains or, like, my peak in terms of climbing.

Simon Sinek 17:43 Yeah.

Nelly Attar 17:43 Everest kinda showed me that, you know, if you train properly, even from a landscape like Saudi. At the time, we still couldn't drive, by the way. Like, at the time, I think this is when they introduced that women could start driving, but I didn't have a license, and the policy was changing, so we still couldn't really, really drive, and there were a lot of challenges when it came to training for Everest from Saudi, but that's why I was so interested in doing it.

Simon Sinek 18:06 So you're training for a sub-zero mountain climb in desert conditions.

Nelly Attar 18:13 Y- yes, exactly.

Simon Sinek 18:14 [laughs]

Nelly Attar 18:14 In extreme desert conditions, yes. It goes up to, like, 45 degrees Celsius.

Simon Sinek 18:20 [laughs]

Nelly Attar 18:20 And that's what I found so interesting, and that's what got me into, I think, extreme sports. Like, from dancing to running to all these things, how far can I take it? How far can I push my body? How can I train for these things from Saudi? That process for me was the most interesting process. How can I train and simulate conditions, this, that, one, when I'm not an athlete, I'm trying to be an athlete, and two, from an environment like this? And so then I thought, "You know what? Like, okay, I've done these other mountains, but Everest, this altitude, what will it take to be okay on this altitude, in this extreme environment?" And so I, I hired a coach from the US, and it was r- a really interesting process trying to simulate climbing Everest. I'd spend four or five hours on a StairMaster machine.

Simon Sinek 19:08 Four or five hours on a StairMaster?

Nelly Attar 19:10 On a StairMaster machine, attached to things, resistance, really trying to mimic different movements. I would spend hours and hours in the gym. Like, sometimes they would even close the gym and leave the key with me, I think 'cause it was just insane how many hours I'd spend in the gym from, like, morning to night. And I would go to the desert. I'd have friends take me to the desert, and then I would spend hours, like, running up and down a little hill just trying to see if, you know, I can get, like, 500 or 600 meters elevation gain. And I think that's what was my why, coupled with I wanna inspire women in my community. I wanna show them that, you know, we belong there, too, that we can make it in these spaces, too. And sports is for everyone. It's not just dance, and it's not just walking, casual walking. We belong in the space of extreme sports, and anything is possible. Like, I was doing this at 29, again, like, with minimal experience in this kind of environment.

Simon Sinek 20:11 Mm-hmm.

Nelly Attar 20:11 I think that was my why.

Simon Sinek 20:13 The purpose of doing it was much like the dance, was much like all the other things, which is to prove that we can be there and we should be there. Was that a driving force from the get-go?

Nelly Attar 20:23 Yes, that was a driving force through all my climbs. After Everest, Simon, I did K2, which I think was much more difficult and demanding.

Simon Sinek 20:31 Yeah.

Nelly Attar 20:31 And then I went on to doing the five highest peaks in the world, and it's always what drives me. It's how much further can I push it?

Simon Sinek 20:38 Yeah.

Nelly Attar 20:38 How much further can I-

Simon Sinek 20:39 Yeah

Nelly Attar 20:39 ... how much further can we push it? But is it a selfish pursuit? Yes. Like, Everest, and I think a lot of these climbs are a selfish

Nelly Attar 20:48 pursuit. It is not a very sustainable sport, unfortunately. For every person that's there, there's a whole team. There's, you know, Sherpas. And if you wanna do this, at least for the sake of your team and the people that you're climbing with, you have to go ready. You have to go prepared.

Simon Sinek 21:07 Mm.

Nelly Attar 21:07 You know, don't go depending on people. Don't go doing the bare minimum because that's when you put your life and the r- life of others at risk.

Simon Sinek 21:15 Mm.

Nelly Attar 21:15 And, you know, try to go as prepared as you can because then instead of burdening other people, you might help other people. You could be supporting other people and helping other people. And when I did Everest and K2, I'm like, "I don't wanna continue being part of the problem, and if I wanna continue doing this, I wanna be part of the solution." So when I did Lhotse and a few of the other peaks, I led a cleanup initiative in partnership with a brand here whereby we collected 1,000 kilograms of waste, high-altitude waste.

Simon Sinek 21:48 Wow.

Nelly Attar 21:49 And we recycled a lot of the waste, and it was a full-circle initiative where we recruited locals, trained them on leaving no trace, because they're the ones who are on the forefront.

Simon Sinek 21:59 Yeah.

Nelly Attar 22:00 So a lot of them need that kind of training. And then we cleaned up a lot of the waste and then recycled it, but honestly, that was a drop in the ocean. 1,000 kilograms, Simon, up there, was a drop in the ocean.

Simon Sinek 22:12 Well, hopefully others will continue. I have to say, Nelly, what I find so inspiring about you is not that you started the dance classes in a place that there weren't dance classes and not that you climbed, you know, Everest or K2 or the other peaks. Those things are amazing accomplishments, and I pay you credit for those astonishing feats. But the thing that I find r- inspiring about you is that you do these things with a sense of service. I mean, you said it. The reason to prepare is not so you can be a badass, you know? The reason to prepare is to take the burden off of those who are there to support you, you know? The reason to work hard is to, is, is for the benefit of others, and that even though, of course, there are benefits to you, and of course, it makes your climb less dangerous, of course, of course, of course, it's very rare, and I don't know if you realize this, it's very rare when you hear people talk about the importance of hard work and the importance of preparation that they ever, ever say that they do it to benefit those who support them. I'm in awe of what you've accomplished, and you keep doing more. Like, right when somebody thinks you've done the thing, you do something else. But this idea that you work hard for others is the thing that I think makes you who you are. You're not the first person representing Saudi to climb or the first woman representing Saudi to climb Everest. You know, you, you're not the first Lebanese to climb Ever- Like, but you are probably the first who worked as hard to do it for others when you did it.

Nelly Attar 23:41 Thank you.

Simon Sinek 23:41 Yeah, I'm floored, to be honest.

Nelly Attar 23:43 Oh, thank you.

Simon Sinek 23:43 It's the reason I was excited to talk to you more. You know, we met briefly at TED, and-

Nelly Attar 23:49 Right

Simon Sinek 23:49 ... and, like, I, I was, I've been very, very excited to talk to you again. And I didn't realize this component until talking to you now, to be honest.

Nelly Attar 23:57 Well, thank you so much. Hearing this from you, Simon, is, uh, honestly such an honor, really. And I, I, I don't think I ever saw it that way. I think it's just, if you're gonna do this, you know, like, make the process enjoyable for everyone. Not just for you, for everyone

Simon Sinek 24:15 And I wanna underscore that there's a nuance here that I don't want it to get lost, which is this is not a inspiring others to follow what you did. You know, you hear Olympic athletes, "I did it to inspire the children." It's like, well, maybe. It's kind of happened after the fact. It's kind of a lucky strike extra, and even some of the things that you said, you know, "I wanted to prove that we could be here," which is true. You may inspire girls and women to participate in difficult things or recognize that there's somebody who looks like them who could accomplish these things, and those things are all true. But the type of service that we're talking about is much closer to home. We're not talking about service to imaginary people or people who you'll never know their names or faces. We're talking about service to people who you will meet, shake their hand, say thank you. That's what I'm talking about. When I'm talking about service, I'm talking about to people who you will actually be around. That kind of service, I think, is a much more n- um, honest kind of service, a much more, uh, authentic kind of service, and to work hard for those people, I think, is genuine

Simon Sinek 25:14 and very often, uh, forgotten.

Nelly Attar 25:17 Yeah, it's the least thing that we can do. It's the least thing that one should do. Like, these people are putting their lives on the line to make this possible for us.

Simon Sinek 25:26 Mm-hmm.

Nelly Attar 25:26 It's the least thing that we can do to go prepared and make their jobs easier.

Simon Sinek 25:30 Mm-hmm.

Nelly Attar 25:30 It's the least thing that we can do. And then also, while you're there, if you can pay or if you can get sponsorship to climb these mountains, account for them, account for the porters. Make sure that you have an amount accounted for them. The, we wouldn't be able to do these things if it weren't for these people.

Simon Sinek 25:47 A- again, Nelly, you, it's obvious to you, and this is what makes you remarkable, right? This is not obvious to others, and yours is an extreme example, right? That you would say that. You know, 'cause other people would say, "They got paid. That's their job," right? Now let's take it back literally a few thousand meters. Let's come down in altitude. You know, when you go buy a cup of coffee, like why can't we show up in a restaurant or a coffee shop with the attitude that, what can I do to make their job a little easier, to make their job a little better? I could say hello. I could say thank you. I could say please. I could ask them their name so that they see that there's somebody who recognizes them as a human being, as opposed to, "That's their job. Get me my coffee." And to go through life with this point of view, that no matter what I do, no matter where I go, how do I make somebody else's job a little easier or a little more fun? This is what it means to live a purpose-driven life. It's not always some big noble cause or pursuit. Sometimes it's very small and very daily, and the satisfaction and the joy of seeing people light up just simply because you took care of somebody. And you know what it's like. People who very often are ignored or, or forgotten, they come up to you, and they say thank you to you. They don't say thank you to others. You know that.

Nelly Attar 27:09 Yes, I know that, Simon. When I feel like they smile and they're happy, I know that, like, they need to be seen. They need to be valued, and they're not seen or valued enough, and you can't just take it for granted, oh, that they're getting paid. But how much, how much are they getting paid? What's $10, let's say $10, for you versus them? What's $100 for you versus them? If that can change their life, you know, think about that. Like, if that is something that you can sacrifice that might change someone's life or month or even day, then it's worth it. It's worth it. And we have that control. People forget that we have that control.

Simon Sinek 27:52 Giving $10 when you can or giving the $100 or asking somebody's name or saying please, saying thank you, or even saying to somebody, "My job is to make your job easier," like literally just saying it to somebody makes somebody feel seen and heard and recognized that they matter in the world. And these things are sometimes as if not more important than giving a tip, giving the big tip. I mean, those things are important as well.

Nelly Attar 28:15 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 28:15 But the validation of the fact that they exist in the world [laughs]

Nelly Attar 28:19 100%, and you know what, Simon? Actually, like, it will come back to you. This comes back to you.

Simon Sinek 28:24 Yeah.

Nelly Attar 28:24 God forbid anything happens to you up there, God forbid, you know people on the mountain. And I started to realize this with time, like, I'm very, very extroverted. I talk to everyone. I dance with everyone, but I realize that sometimes, like in really hostile environments, as we're moving up to camp three or camp four, this has happened multiple times where I'm just, you know, suffering. I'm in, like, absolute suffer mode and, you know, things could be going wrong, and then someone says, "Hey, Nelly, how are you? Nice to see you again." That could change my entire mood, and then anything that goes wrong, if you know people up there, like, it could come back to you in one way or another. But apart from that, going back to making them s- feel seen, um, and valued, it could be as simple as eating with them. Like the porters, for example, have their own dining tent, so we don't really interact with them, and I think that's wrong. Like, we're a team for two months up there. We're a team for five weeks, and they actually really like it. They really appreciate it when you go and sit with them, and you listen to their music, and you try to learn their language, and it's those little things that, yeah, really, really matter, and as you say, like, it could matter more than the big tip.

Simon Sinek 29:35 The practice of kindness, right? It's the practice of kindness. It reminds me, because very often people are kind when they want something. All of a sudden, they're super charming and friendly and wanna know your name, and you know they've been not that nice for a while, or they've been... And then you, you, you're just waiting. You're like, "Where's the ask?" Like, "I'm just waiting for the ask," right? And that's very common, that people are nice when they need something. And the idea of the practice of kindness, right? It just reminds me when I was very young. Thank goodness my parents raised us to treat everybody well, whether somebody's the janitor or the CEO, you treat them well. You treat them the same, right? And so that's just how we were raised as kids. And I remember when I was entry-level in my job- I worked at an ad agency, and one of the responsibilities of the entry-level kid was to make sure that the packages get sent to the client. You know? That's, that was my job, right? Sometimes when I would go down to the mail room to drop something off or pick something up, if we had, like, extra cookies left over from a meeting that I knew they were just gonna throw in the garbage, I'd take them down to the mail room. Or if somebody sent us T-shirts that nobody wanted, you know, b- or they picked at it and got their sizes already or whatever it was, you know, I would take down whatever we had left. And I'd, I would always just remember that they exist down in the basement, right? I didn't want anything. It's just 'cause they were nice guys, and they were always forgotten, and so, you know, I would bring stuff from upstairs down to the basement sometimes. And I remember there was this one time where FedEx closed at 7:00 PM, and I was running late, and I had to get this out to the client. I ran down to the mail room, and I didn't even have it in the box. I had, like, a pile of stuff, and I, it was, like, 6:59, and I, there's, there's no way it should make it, right? And I remember running to the mail room, guy, and going like, "Guys, am, am I gonna m- miss the FedEx?" And they're like, "Simon, we got you. Don't worry. You're gonna make it. You're gonna make it. Don't worry." And there was this other entry-level junior kid who, who treated them like you'd expect, who comes in with his package fully packed, and he goes, "Send this." And they said to him, "Sorry, man, it's closed. It- sorry, man, it's closed." I'm standing there with my pile of stuff, and he's standing there with his package, and it was in that moment I recognized the value of just treating people nice. And it was not because that's what I wanted, but I recognized that these boomerangs sometimes come back.

Nelly Attar 31:46 Absolutely.

Simon Sinek 31:47 And the idea of showing up every day to be a kind person because it's just good to be a kind person is the correct investment and is the way that you reap the benefits. But only giving when you want is, again, it's simply selfishness. It's not kind at all.

Nelly Attar 32:02 And you know what? On that note, Simon, actually, the days that I feel like I lose purpose and I lose drive and the days that I feel like I don't know where I'm going with my life, and I feel stuck, the best thing to do is to go and interact with someone and help someone in one way or another, and that help could be, it could be anything. It could be anything. That's what's amazing about life. I feel like life will present you with so many opportunities, but be open to these opportunities. And when you do positively interact with people and help them somehow or some way in their day, it just does so much for you when you feel that way. Like, sometimes, honestly, like, that pours so much into my cup during the times that I feel really down, and I feel like I don't know my why, and I feel so lost.

Simon Sinek 32:53 Yeah.

Nelly Attar 32:53 Just going back to that really, really helps me.

Simon Sinek 32:55 What's next for you? What's your next adventure? What's your next goal? What's... I mean, you always seem to have something on the horizon.

Nelly Attar 33:02 So honestly, this year, I really wanna focus on helping people climb their mountain.

Simon Sinek 33:06 Yeah.

Nelly Attar 33:06 I wanna help people embark on big physical challenges because that's changed my life. And so I'm spending a bit more time in the region really trying to enable people to embark on big physical challenges, whether that's through leading trips, through coaching, through activations. And in terms of big mountains, of course, there's always some big mountains in the horizon. But it depends on sponsorship. It depends on a bunch of other factors. For the next few months, there is no big mountain planned, but hopefully in the next six months, I'll be going back to Nepal. We'll see.

Simon Sinek 33:39 I've seen videos of you on, on your Instagram of you leading hikes in the desert with folks. They look amazing. I actually wanna come on one one day. They look so fun, and you're taking people of all kinds of physical fitness levels, and you're pushing them and challenging them. And some of the hikes you're doing, I mean, those are difficult, serious hikes you're doing out in the mountains. Tell me a story of somebody who, who showed up on one of your hikes and what you learned from them.

Nelly Attar 34:06 Hmm. Good question. I think I, I think there's so many stories like that. I'll choose my friend's story. There's a friend of mine from high school who's gone through a lot of struggles in her life. She's been through a lot of ups and downs. She also went to rehab multiple times. She changed jobs multiple times, and I feel like there's no consistency in her life, and she has some major highs and lows. And signing up to one of these trips that I was leading, I wasn't sure how she was gonna show up, if she's gonna show up. She might sign up and not show up. She did, and she completed every single challenge that we did. It was a trip to Bhutan, where we basically had a different adventure every single day. There was cycling one day. There was rafting, hiking a big mountain, and she managed to get through the whole process, and I think it really did something for her, Simon. I think it really changed something in her. And during that trip, I could see it. Like, I could see day by day she was going through, like, an internal struggle and just trying to let go and trying to accept that this is her life, and she really wants to, you know, start a new chapter. But I think that that showed her what she's capable of. It reminded her that she's a lot stronger, a lot more resourceful. And, you know, maybe to sometimes get yourself out of this, like, negative loop, you need to do something completely different. You need to test yourself, maybe physically. And so the next trip she came on, a couple months later, she came on another trip where she actually did a much bigger hike. And then on that trip, again, she was really doubtful, and she was like, "I can't do this. I'm not fit. I haven't been consistent." Up on the summit, she was so happy. She was one of the first few people to make it up on the summit, and this was in Yemen, in, in an island called Socotra, and it's the second highest peak in Socotra. And she just, like, she did that with flying colors, and it's changed something in her. And now she's training more consistently. I think self-care is a lot higher in terms of her priorities. But I think she's seen what she's capable of. That was the most important thing for her, and that inspired me. Like, that reminded me of why I started, why I did all these things.

Simon Sinek 36:17 Of all the amazing things that you've accomplished and the amazing feats that you've overcome, is there one that stands out as the proudest? Is there one that if all the things you did in your life were like this one thing, you'd be the happiest person alive?

Nelly Attar 36:30 I mean, MOVE is one. MOVE is something that I w- I'm so proud of because of what it did for people and what it did to people, and then K2, climbing K2.

Simon Sinek 36:40 What was it about K2 that stands out above all the other things you've done in your life?

Nelly Attar 36:47 I lost my father a year before climbing K2, and Simon, my dad was my everything. He was my best friend, my biggest supporter since I was a kid. He was the one that encouraged me to be authentic, to be different, and that it was okay to be different, that it was okay to not be understood. And my dad supported me through all my ups and downs in life, and he took me on my first hike when I was 17. When I graduated from school, he took me to Mount Kenya, and that is basically, I think, what planted the seed of adventure within me. And when I was there on Mount Kenya with my dad, I thought to myself, "I wanna do this when I'm older." So through all these climbs, my dad was ecstatic. Like, "I can't believe my daughter is doing this. My daughter Nelly is doing this." And luckily, he was there to witness Everest, and I think him witnessing Everest was my Everest. His joy was my Everest. And a year later, he passed away during COVID, and it just shook my entire world. I closed my business a few months before my dad passed away, and I thought that would be the hardest thing because of COVID. And then I lose my dad, and that just stripped me off of everything. Um, and I didn't know how I can go through life again. And then the idea of K2 came about. So K2 was much more than a climb for me. It was much, much, much more than a climb for me. It was something that demanded so much in terms of, yeah, like coming out of my shell in a very, very dark period of my life.

Simon Sinek 38:31 Is K2 technically more difficult than Everest?

Nelly Attar 38:34 K2 is significantly more difficult and technically more demanding than Everest.

Simon Sinek 38:40 Did you do it for your dad?

Nelly Attar 38:44 I think I did it with what my dad left me with. And his favorite quote was, "Nelly, only those who risk going far can find out how far they can go." And so that's what took me to K2. And I wanted to climb through life again. I wanted to climb through life again, remember what I was capable of. And because I was not fixated on any outcome, I was not fixated on anything, I just wanted life to feel okay again. I wanted some colors to come back into my life. That's what helped me let go of everything, like the stress and the worry of K2. I just thought, "Okay, a big mountain. I have to train differently for this climb. This is a lot more dangerous than Everest."

Nelly Attar 39:25 Just for some perspective, Simon, one out of four don't come back from that mountain.

Simon Sinek 39:29 They die.

Nelly Attar 39:30 Yeah, they die. K2 is extremely dangerous.

Simon Sinek 39:33 25% of people who attempt K2 don't make, die. Forget about not make the peak.

Nelly Attar 39:39 Yes, 25% don't come back.

Simon Sinek 39:42 Wow. Wow.

Nelly Attar 39:42 But then I was thinking, there's 75% that come back, and if 350 people climbed K2 before me, then why can't I? I'll do what they did, and I'll try to do it better. And so that's-

Simon Sinek 39:54 Only 350 people have climbed it?

Nelly Attar 39:57 The year I climbed it, only 350 people had climbed it then.

Simon Sinek 40:00 Wow.

Nelly Attar 40:00 I think now there's, like, maybe a little over 500.

Simon Sinek 40:03 Wow. You made it up the first try?

Nelly Attar 40:06 I made it up the first try, and I became the first Arab to summit K2.

Simon Sinek 40:10 Ah. W- what happens if you don't make it? Like, what happens if you get to the point... Because I think people forget that making it to the peak of a mountain is only halfway, you know? And I'm told that more people die on the way down because they either stay up too long, they get summit fever, they should have turned around, they didn't. You know, all of these factors, and they usually die on the way down, not the way up. I've been told by professional climbers that you can tell the difference between the professionals and the amateurs because the professionals know, "You know what? Today is not the day," and you go back down. And the, the amateurs, they'll keep going to the summit and get summit fever even if the conditions are not right. When have you had to turn around? And I don't mean on a mountain, although that's fine too, but, like, when you set out to do a project, whether it was a MOVE project or a hike project or a mountain climb project or a business project. You know, tell me a time where you, you couldn't summit metaphorically and you had to make the choice to turn around.

Nelly Attar 41:00 I mean, there are many mountains, including an 8,000-meter peak Annapurna where we had to turn around. And MOVE, my dance studio, although it was a big success, we closed. Had to shut down the business.

Simon Sinek 41:11 Yeah.

Nelly Attar 41:12 I think there comes a point where retreat will save you so much more in the future. And it's not giving up. It's knowing when to retreat and to say, "Okay, this is done. This chapter is closed." Or, "You know what? I'm gonna turn back because I wanna continue in this sport. If I don't turn back, I may not be able to continue in this sport because I might lose fingers, toes. I may lose my life." So you wanna think of the bigger picture and take yourself out of this moment. And I think experience, life teaches you this when it's giving up and when it's retreat, strategic retreat.

Simon Sinek 41:50 I think that's a brilliant perspective. The, the United States Marine Corps calls it advancing in the opposite direction.

Nelly Attar 41:55 Oh, I love that. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 41:57 [laughs]

Nelly Attar 41:57 I love that.

Simon Sinek 41:59 But the idea of re- that I'm retreating from this goal, I'm retreating from this climb so that I can do it again, rather than I'm quitting, I failed, I didn't make it.

Nelly Attar 42:08 Exactly.

Simon Sinek 42:08 Because those, that mindset is one of completion, right? It sounds final, but to your point, the word retreat, um, the connotations, the feeling is that, so that I can again.

Nelly Attar 42:21 Exactly

Simon Sinek 42:22 You retreated from your business rather than close your business, shut your business, business failed. You retreated from it, which I find quite clever, actually.

Nelly Attar 42:30 Exactly, Simon. I think this is what helped me make peace with closing the studio. We dragged it out for a little while, and then we started to phase it out, and then I told myself that this is a retreat. I'm gonna close the business, but who knows? I could reopen it in the future on better terms. It doesn't have to be a permanent ending, and maybe I may not, and I might start something else, but this will save the energy for something bigger and something better. When it's been dragging for too long, you know, this is when I felt like it just became so taxing on so many levels, and I just, yeah, I felt like if I shut this down, that will save my energy to build something else in the future, and potentially, potentially rebuild this on better terms in a better way.

Simon Sinek 43:15 You naturally embody an infinite mindset, and the, you know, one of the core tenets of an infinite mindset is that everything that happens in your life is part of a continuum. It's not the thing, you know?

Nelly Attar 43:25 Oh, I love that.

Simon Sinek 43:27 And there's an old Chinese, uh, proverb, it's told many ways, this is the way I know it, that captures this idea, right? There's a young man born with the remarkable ability for horse riding, and everyone in the village says, "You're so lucky." And the monk says, "We'll see." And then he falls off his horse and breaks his leg, and his, his riding career is over, and everyone in the village says, "You're so unlucky." And the monk says, "We'll see." And then war breaks out, and all the men are sent to battle, but he can't go because of his busted leg, and everybody in the village says, "You're so lucky." And the monk says, "We'll see." You know, good news, bad news, who knows?

Nelly Attar 43:59 Right.

Simon Sinek 43:59 And the point is, is that all of these events that happen in our lives are not the start of something, nor are they the end of something. They're simply moments on a continuum, and you seem to naturally embody that understanding that nothing that's happening in your life is failure, it's retreat. You know? Even your successes aren't final. Your successes are simply steps to the next step. You know, proof that you can do something, and what else can I accomplish? And there's a, there's this magical growth that happens to you with each of your accomplishments, and you don't have a bravado about you, which I respect. Other people who walk around with these badges, you know, of accomplishment, it becomes their identity. I am, you know, an Everest summiteer. I am a this. I am an entrepreneur. I am a millionaire, right? They use a being verb for a goal, and you haven't said that at all. You know, you talk about these things you've done or the things you've tried or these things you've accomplished, and you, you have a very balanced sense of identity, which is service, versus what your accomplishments are, and you do not conflate the two. And I think one of the challenges a lot of people have in the world is they define themselves by their title or their accomplishments. Just look at people's bios. The first line, CEO of, Oscar-winning, dot, dot, dot. So you accomplish yourself by a title that you have that you don't own, that somebody else can take away from you, or that you'll, you know, age out of at some point, or something that you accomplished 20 years ago. These aren't identities. They're simply accomplishments.

Nelly Attar 45:23 Absolutely.

Simon Sinek 45:24 And you embody this so perfectly. Like, your identity is not conflated with these things that you've done. And by the way, any one of these things could become your identity or are the identities of other people who do similar things. Where did you learn that? Like, who... How do you define yourself? Like, who are you

Simon Sinek 45:44 if you're not a, an Everest climber or a K2 climber? If you're not an entrepreneur, if you're not a Nike athlete, like, who are you?

Nelly Attar 45:51 [laughs] You know, I was worried you'd ask me that question, 'cause I never know how to answer. I'm someone that absolutely wants to make the best use of this life that I have, and make a great impact while I'm still around. I think that's who I am.

Simon Sinek 46:08 Can I make an observation?

Nelly Attar 46:10 Sure.

Simon Sinek 46:11 I think you are, you are become your father.

Nelly Attar 46:16 Oh.

Simon Sinek 46:16 You exist so that you can show others that if they can push their boundaries, they'll find out where their boundaries are. It's not that you started MOVE. It's that the women who ca- We forget that the women who came to dance took a risk too, you know? And that you created a safe space and an encouraging environment for other people to take the risks that m- they probably wouldn't have taken without you. You became your family to these women. You became your father to your friend who came to Bhutan.

Nelly Attar 46:48 I love that.

Simon Sinek 46:49 You became your father to the porters on Everest. You know? A kind spirit who, who wants to create a safe space to show others what they're capable of.

Nelly Attar 47:00 Simon, like, I don't think I'll ever forget this. Thank you so much. Actually, thank you so, so much. I needed to hear this today.

Simon Sinek 47:10 I'm a fan, Nelly. I'm a big fan.

Nelly Attar 47:12 I'm a big fan, Simon.

Simon Sinek 47:13 And I'm a big fan not, not of your accomplishments, but of who you are, and I think I learn from you about how to go through the world, and it's why I wanted you on this podcast. I can have a million mountain climbers on the podcast, you know? I could have people in Saudi who did things, the, the first woman to drive the car, and they're all amazing things, and they're all remarkable in their own way. But the reason I was excited to have you and to talk to you was this. It's the manner in which you choose to live your life in service to others. I find it absolutely inspiring.

Nelly Attar 47:47 Thank you so much. I mean, you do the same, Simon. There's not one person that I ask, "Do you guys know Simon?" All across the Middle East, everyone knows who Simon Sinek is. And you've impacted so many lives all across the world. And along my chapter, I remember when I was transitioning from being a psychologist to working full-time in sports, I signed up to your course, and I bought your book because I wanted to find my why, and I really wanted to understand my purpose. And so you have been instrumental in my journey years back, and I never thought I'd be here.

Simon Sinek 48:20 Oh, thank you, Nelly. Thank you.

Nelly Attar 48:22 Thank you, Simon. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 48:24 Well, we should probably stop now before we both start crying.

Nelly Attar 48:27 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 48:27 The, the team has given me some questions [laughs] I'm supposed to ask you. What do you think the difference is between fear that is protecting you and fear that is holding you back?

Nelly Attar 48:38 Good question.

Nelly Attar 48:42 Fear that is protecting you is real fear. Real fear as in you could lose your life. That's the kind of fear that protects you, and it's telling you, "Be careful. Maybe do the thing, but just be extra aware and extra careful." No room for complacency. And the other fear that's holding you back is the fear of stepping out of your comfort zone. You know you need to do the thing. There's no real threat to your life or safety or security. It's just fear of discomfort, fear of being embarrassed, fear of making a mistake, fear of actually rising to another level. There is going to be discomfort there, and I think that is sometimes mistaken with fear, like, the, the, the feelings of, like, discomfort, and that's when you know you should go for it regardless. Just go for it. And then also go for it here, but just be very careful.

Simon Sinek 49:36 You say, um, you move for a living. What do you feel movement does for the mind that most underestimate?

Nelly Attar 49:43 Movement is medicine. Movement is medicine. We are designed to move, and I think a lot of the problems that we have today is because we sit. We spend so much time sitting behind screens. We are designed to move. We're designed to be moving around all day, not sitting all day and then going for an hour of CrossFit or an hour of high-intensity training. You're supposed to be moving throughout the day, using your fingers, using your legs, using your core. You know, we have a body for a reason, and I think because we've eliminated that from our life, this is why we have so many problems. The mind and body are one. It's not two separate parts. It's one. And this is what I've learned through training and years of extreme sports. It's actually my mind that gets me to do these things, not my body. My body helps, but it's my mind. You feed your mind. You, you help your mind. You support your mind when you take care of your body.

Simon Sinek 50:37 Nelly, thank you so much. I hope I get to see you in person soon, and maybe-

Nelly Attar 50:40 Me too

Simon Sinek 50:40 ... we can come on a hike with you one day.

Nelly Attar 50:42 Me too. Please, when you come to Dubai or you come to the region, you let me know, and I'll take you-

Simon Sinek 50:46 100%

Nelly Attar 50:46 ... on an epic hike.

Simon Sinek 50:47 I can't wait. As always, thank you for watching. If you liked this episode, please subscribe to A Bit of Optimism for more interesting guests and even more interesting conversations. New episodes drop every Tuesday. But if you'd like more optimism right now, click here to watch another episode. Until next time, take care of yourself, take care of each other.