The Anxious Generation with social psychologist Jonathan Haidt | A Bit of Optimism Podcast

Simon Sinek 0:00 Jonathan, huge fan of your work. Um, going back to all of your TED Talks. Um, I, I, I would like to start there if I can. Um, your work on, on morality, I, I find infinitely fascinating. O- one of the things that I find so interesting, especially in this modern day, is m- is the conflict of morality. In other words, two sides believing that they are on, on the side of the moral right.

Jonathan Haidt 0:27 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 0:28 Um, and, you know, and that seems to be where we are these days, where w- where it's not like, "Hmm, you have an interesting point of view that I disagree with," but rather, "I am right, and you are wrong." And both sides believe that they are fighting for the moral good of the nation.

Jonathan Haidt 0:45 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 0:45 You know, we, we used to read the news and then call up our friends and vent our anger or feel our emotions and cry or whatever it was to our friends, and then we would be able to have a, a, a rational conversation about it later.

Jonathan Haidt 1:00 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 1:00 And now we read the news, and we log on to our social media of choice, and we vent our anger or feel our emotions, and then we respond to the responses.

Jonathan Haidt 1:10 Exactly.

Simon Sinek 1:10 We respond to the reactions.

Jonathan Haidt 1:11 That's right. So it's very helpful to always ask, "What game are you playing, and what game is my partner playing? What game is the other person playing?"

Simon Sinek 1:19 Yeah.

Jonathan Haidt 1:20 So, [clears throat] yeah,

Jonathan Haidt 1:22 you know, in the old days, you know, when w- well, I'm older than you, but, you know, when, when we read newspapers and didn't have social media, you might call your friend-

Simon Sinek 1:28 You're very kind. I am old enough to remember newspapers. [laughs]

Jonathan Haidt 1:30 [laughs] Sorry. But then you look-

Simon Sinek 1:32 That's very generous of you. Thank you. [laughs]

Jonathan Haidt 1:33 You look a, you look a lot younger than me. You don't have any gray hair, so I'm gonna count you as a... I guess you're Gen E- you're, you're Gen X. You're not a millennial, but, um-

Simon Sinek 1:41 I am Gen X, yes. [laughs]

Jonathan Haidt 1:44 Yeah. Um, uh, but, you know, so what game are you playing? Uh, you might really have been upset about that thing, and so you actually do want to vent, and so you're playing the I'm expressing my feelings game, and there's a place for that.

Simon Sinek 1:57 Yeah.

Jonathan Haidt 1:57 Um, or maybe, you know, maybe your friend disagrees with you, and then you're playing the game of, "Oh, I wanna convince him." Um, or maybe it's just the game of, "I'm right. I need to prove that I'm right."

Simon Sinek 2:08 Yeah.

Jonathan Haidt 2:08 So there are a lot of different games, and that's just if it's two of you. Now, suppose that instead of a private phone call, you said, "Let's meet down in the Roman Colosseum, in the center

Jonathan Haidt 2:18 of the Colosseum, and let's fill the stands with people who paid to get in to see blood." That's what they're there for. They wanna see fighting. And now let's talk about gun control or abortion or whatever you read in the newspaper. Let's talk about it. Well, what game would we be playing? We're entirely playing the game of savaging the other in order to appeal to the audience. Now, that's not what always happens on Twitter. I mean, Twitter often interactions can be nice, but the incentives f- on p- i, i- the incentives in social media are not to play the find the truth game, are not to, uh, you know, to play the pers- even, even the persuade the other person game.

Simon Sinek 2:52 Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Haidt 2:52 It really is playing to an audience, and this is one of the reasons I am so alarmed about the future of, of the United States, uh, because our country already was polarizing before social media, and cable TV has a lot to do with this. Um, I was already concerned about polarization. My first TED Talk in, uh, uh, 2008 was about left, right, why they can't understand each other, moral foundations.

Simon Sinek 3:17 Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Haidt 3:18 I was already concerned about polarization in 2008, back when social media wasn't terribly polarizing.

Simon Sinek 3:23 Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Haidt 3:23 And then in 2009, you get the Like button, the, um, the, the T- retweet and share button. Uh, you now get, um, uh, algorithms become much more common because now you've got all this information coming in from Like and Share buttons. The newsfeed came in a couple years before. So social media really reconfigured around between 2009 and 2012 to become much, much

Jonathan Haidt 3:47 better at throwing gasoline on every possible spark. So yeah, that's where we are now, playing that game.

Simon Sinek 3:53 The, the frustration is, is, and, and this goes to, you know, some of the work that I've done and, and a lot of the work that you've done where we speak about younger generations and the, the, and the, and the insidiousness of, of social media and, and cell phones as it relates to, you know, feelings of self-worth and sociability. You know, but the, the... There's no going back. The, the, the, the genie's out of the bottle. Like, and, you know, the stuff that we're talking about now, the, you know, the concept of dopamine and dopamine hits and addictive quality, like this is now i- this is now known. Like, this isn't, like, this is no longer news.

Jonathan Haidt 4:30 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 4:30 Yet we all know it. We all know that we're divided. We all know that we react to social media the way we do. We all know about virtue signaling on both sides of the political equation.

Jonathan Haidt 4:40 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 4:40 We know these things, and yet for some reason, we still can't control ourselves. We still can't find-

Jonathan Haidt 4:45 Yeah

Simon Sinek 4:45 ... get, get, get out of it.

Jonathan Haidt 4:47 That's right.

Simon Sinek 4:47 You know, uh, Jonathan, h- how, fix America.

Jonathan Haidt 4:52 Okay. [laughs] Um, let's... I can do half of it. Um, let's break the problem into

Jonathan Haidt 4:59 the kids and the democracy.

Simon Sinek 5:00 Okay.

Jonathan Haidt 5:01 Um, the kids, which is the subject of, of my, of my book, The, The Anxious Generation, that we can actually solve that in the next year or two. Um, and I'll start there. The democracy, my God, that is a much harder problem for a lot of reasons, which I hope we'll, we'll get, we'll get into. Um, but what you were just laying out was, was how each of us might individually want to change, but yet we're not able to.

Simon Sinek 5:24 Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Haidt 5:25 Now, sometimes that's because of addiction, and as you, as you said, I mean, the, you know, these things are all about little dopamine hits, and that's what makes us crave more. Um, and so smokers, when they want to quit, have trouble quitting.

Simon Sinek 5:36 Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Haidt 5:36 And so part of that is what's going on for adults. Um, but the biggest thing, you know, I, I teach courses here at NYU, and I, I have graduate, uh, MBA students, and I have undergrads, and we go through what, what the life on social media is doing to them, to their productivity, to their focus, um, to their happiness. Uh, and, y- uh, you know, some of them try to quit, but, you know, I say, "Well, why don't you, y- why don't you all just quit?" And the answer is always the same: "Because everyone else is on it. I can't quit because everyone else is on it." And they would miss out on too much, and there are sometimes career elements for the MBA students, but for the undergrads, it's all social. And so the way to understand what's happened to us is that these tech companies have put us into what social scientists call a collective action problem, um, where we face a problem, we don't like how things are. We could change it individually, but each of us looking at the change says, "Oh, wow, if I do that, I'll actually be worse off." Uh, and so most of us who, you know, w- our kids come to us in sixth grade, typically fifth or sixth grade, and say, "You know, Daddy, I, I need a smartphone. Everyone's, everyone's got a smartphone. I'm the only one." Uh, and that's very painful to hear that your kid is being excluded. Well, the only reason that the other parents gave their kids a smartphone so early is because they also said, "Everyone has a smartphone." And so each of us might wanna delay smartphones and social media, but if our kid is the only one who's kept out, well, then our kid is worse off.

Simon Sinek 7:04 Hmm.

Jonathan Haidt 7:05 But if we all do it together, or if even a quarter of us do it together, uh, then our kids can't say they're the only one. So if we can do this with the parents of our kids' friends, then we give them

Jonathan Haidt 7:19 a normal childhood. We say, "Instead of spending all afternoon on your phone, how about you guys get together and go out someplace with no supervision? Ride your bicycles. Go buy ice cream. Do something together not supervised by adults." They would have a much better childhood. They'd come out mentally healthy.

Simon Sinek 7:35 The, the, the-- Though I agree, the, the challenge is kind of like education reform. Like every-- The more I learn about education reform, the more I'm learning that it's not the school districts, it's not the teachers, but it's largely the parents, which is everybody wants, um, uh, education reform. We just don't want you to experiment on my child.

Jonathan Haidt 7:55 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 7:56 You know, please experiment at a different school and find out what happens.

Jonathan Haidt 7:59 Right. Yeah.

Simon Sinek 8:00 Um, and the, and, and I've heard the same when it comes to phones, which is, uh, some schools have attempted to ban phones-

Jonathan Haidt 8:07 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 8:07 ... and it's the parents-

Jonathan Haidt 8:09 Yeah

Simon Sinek 8:09 ... who make an uproar. You know, "I have to be able to text my kid anytime. What happens if there's an emergency?" Well, call the office. They'll, they know where your kid is. They'll go get your kid out of class and say your grandmother died.

Jonathan Haidt 8:18 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 8:18 You know, and br- like they know where your kids are at all moments. But for some reason, it's the parents and the anxiety the parents have, and I've even r-read research that like in the car, you know, kids who are on the phone when they're driving, it's largely the parents texting them, and the parents will get mad at them.

Jonathan Haidt 8:32 Ah. Oh, no. Oh, no.

Simon Sinek 8:34 So-

Jonathan Haidt 8:34 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 8:35 ... so the intention, the intensity of like I have to respond immediately even when I'm driving-

Jonathan Haidt 8:39 Yeah. Yeah

Simon Sinek 8:39 ... the pressures are not coming actually from... I'm, I'm su- I mean, look, there's plenty of peer pressure from the kids, obviously.

Jonathan Haidt 8:45 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 8:45 But, but, but huge amounts of pressure from the parents.

Jonathan Haidt 8:48 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 8:48 So-

Jonathan Haidt 8:49 Yeah

Simon Sinek 8:49 ... I hear you, but how many of the parents will collectively say, "We agree not to give our kids phones"-

Jonathan Haidt 8:53 Yeah

Simon Sinek 8:54 ... when they have the anxiety of not being able to get ahold of their kids every moment?

Jonathan Haidt 8:58 Right. Okay. Right. So, so this is the, this is the big thing that a lot of people don't seem to understand is that there are other kinds of phones other than smartphones.

Simon Sinek 9:07 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jonathan Haidt 9:08 So I totally understand. Look, p- you know, half of what I'm saying isn't about the phones. Half of it is we have to let kids out on their own by the age of eight or so. There are circumstances where maybe it's later, but you know, in general, all older people, we were all out by age seven, plus or minus. That's when you went out to play with other kids.

Simon Sinek 9:26 Yeah.

Jonathan Haidt 9:26 That's incredibly healthy. You get into trouble, you get into arguments, but you resolve them. Um, so that has to happen. And I understand. Look, uh, w- I live in New York City. I s- I started sending, let my kids walk to school in fourth grade when very few other, nobody else was doing that. I wasn't gonna let my kids walk around New York City without being able to track them and find them and contact them, but I didn't think to give my son a flip phone. I just said, "Well, he needs a phone," so I gave him my old iPhone.

Simon Sinek 9:53 Yeah.

Jonathan Haidt 9:54 Um, but what I'm advocating for, um, is that, is that we solve this collective action problem by saying no smartphones until high school. You can give your kid a flip phone. You can reach your kid. Now, you're right that even with a flip phone, there's like too much, there's too much contact. That's definitely true, so we still have to work on norms. But at least with a flip phone, what's a flip phone good for? All it's good for is making phone calls and receiving texts. It's not even good for sending texts 'cause you have to press the seven key three times-

Simon Sinek 10:23 Yeah, yeah

Jonathan Haidt 10:23 ... to make whatever letter. So, um, if we gave our kids flip phones, they wouldn't be on it all the time like pouring out their emotions. They'd say like, you know, "See you at 3:00," and then they'd be more likely to use it to meet up and to communicate with one person, not to broadcast out to social media.

Simon Sinek 10:37 Yeah.

Jonathan Haidt 10:38 Um, so that, that's an important technological ch- thing. As for schools, you're absolutely right. When, when I talk to principals, they all hate the phones. It's making their lives miserable. The teachers all hate the phones. It's making their lives miserable. The students aren't paying attention in class. They're literally watching porn and YouTube and gambl- I mean, they're... It's insane that we let kids have the greatest distraction device ever invented. They can just keep it in their pocket. Um, completely insane. And I say to the principals, "Why don't you just use phone lockers or Yondr pouches?" And it's always the same thing, which is just what you said. Some of the parents will freak out. They need to reach their kids. Yes, that's true. Some of the parents will freak out. But you know what? Almost all, most parents now are so fed up with what the phones are doing to their kids-

Simon Sinek 11:22 Yeah

Jonathan Haidt 11:22 ... that most parents would support, um, a phone-free school as long as they know that everyone else is supporting it, everyone else is doing it, and I can reach my kid in case of an emergency. Some will still freak out, but the great majority wanna do something. So I

Jonathan Haidt 11:36 think this, again, it's a collective action problem.

Simon Sinek 11:37 Yeah. Right.

Jonathan Haidt 11:37 If we start this together, it's gonna overwhelm the principals, and they'll have to say, "You know what? Far more parents want their kid to pay attention in class than the, you know, the seven who are always ruining my life by yelling and screaming at me."

Simon Sinek 11:51 Yeah, yeah. Okay, let's go to democracy.

Jonathan Haidt 11:55 Wait, let, before we do that, um, do you, uh, do you have kids?

Simon Sinek 11:58 I don't. I have a niece and a nephew.

Jonathan Haidt 12:00 Okay. How old are they?

Simon Sinek 12:01 Thir- uh, he just, my nephew just turned 13, and my niece is 14.

Jonathan Haidt 12:05 And they both have cell, uh, smartphones, I assume.

Simon Sinek 12:07 They do. They do.

Jonathan Haidt 12:09 Mm-hmm. Where are they growing up?

Simon Sinek 12:10 Uh, in Los Angeles.

Jonathan Haidt 12:13 Um, and do you know if they're on Instagram?

Simon Sinek 12:15 They are not.

Jonathan Haidt 12:17 Okay. What about TikTok?

Simon Sinek 12:19 They are. Uh, my ne- my niece is. Uh, my niece is, not my nephew. My nephew's, uh, his demise is YouTube.

Jonathan Haidt 12:27 Yep.

Simon Sinek 12:28 Uh, a teenage boy on YouTube, I mean-

Jonathan Haidt 12:31 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 12:31 ... he'll get up and go get a drink, and I'll walk into the kitchen and he'll be on his phone looking at YouTube. I'll be like, "I thought you were just getting a drink," you know?

Jonathan Haidt 12:37 Yeah. That's right.

Simon Sinek 12:37 Um, which is insane. My niece, my niece it's... What I find fascinating about my niece is, and I actually really like this, yes, she's talking on the phone the whole time to her friends, but she's on FaceTime. Like, they're actually-

Jonathan Haidt 12:48 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 12:49 ... they're actually, I find that-

Jonathan Haidt 12:50 That's great

Simon Sinek 12:51 ... I find that super healthy.

Jonathan Haidt 12:51 FaceTime is fine.

Simon Sinek 12:52 I think that's super healthy.

Jonathan Haidt 12:54 Yeah. Yep, that's right. Yeah, so the, so what the research shows, um, is that boys and girls are equally, um, they're, they're spending roughly the same amount of time on their phones, um, about five hours a day just on social media. Uh, now that includes... Now the k- the trick is, though, that includes TikTok and YouTube.

Simon Sinek 13:14 Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Haidt 13:14 Because the kids are watching huge amounts of videos. What, what really began, uh, in the early 2010s is that when they all got phones, they all spent the whole day on the phone, but the girls went for social media, especially visual platforms. They went for Instagram and Pinterest and Tumblr. Um, and the boys went for video games and YouTube.

Simon Sinek 13:34 Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Haidt 13:34 That, th- they tend to be more addicted to those two. Um, and so the girls instantly got depressed. The depression epidemic, it begins in 2012, 2013, as soon as, uh... You know, in, in 2010, very few kids had a smartphone. It was just coming in. You know, the App Store had just been released recently. So in 2010, the iPhone is not a big part of, of teen life. By 2015, it's the center of teen life.

Simon Sinek 13:58 Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Haidt 13:58 So what I'm arguing in, in The Anxious Generation is that between 2010 and 2015 was the great rewiring of childhood, where kids were no longer, uh, looking at each other or spending time with each other because they had this incredible distraction device, this in- uh, th- this phone, which was their portal to lots of companies that wanted to get their attention.

Simon Sinek 14:20 Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Haidt 14:20 So we basically, it's like, you know, a lot, most parents would not want their, their, their child, their daughter to have an open window out onto the street where anyone can just reach in and, you know, and see them and take them. But that's kind of what we did in the early 2010s. We said, "Here, have a phone, go on Instagram, talk with strangers. Uh, you know, they'll try to proposition you, they'll try to sell you things, but, you know, what are you gonna do? It's the digital age." That's where we are.

Simon Sinek 14:48 So, so but, so is... But parents are struggling as well. Like, I think, I mean, all parents, I think most, most parents are well-intentioned.

Jonathan Haidt 14:55 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 14:55 Most parents-

Jonathan Haidt 14:56 Absolutely

Simon Sinek 14:56 ... the vast majority of parents want, want what's best for their kids. Um, there is s- it's okay to be tempted by the, the magic of the phone, you know, because it's a great babysitter.

Jonathan Haidt 15:09 Yes.

Simon Sinek 15:09 Um, you know, giving the kids a devi- I went out for brunch, and there was a whole table of the parents, and then there was a whole table of the kids.

Jonathan Haidt 15:15 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 15:16 And all the parents were chatting, and all the kids were on their own device.

Jonathan Haidt 15:19 Yeah. That's right.

Simon Sinek 15:20 And it was tragic. Like, I have friends who ha- they've got two, two younger kids, and the kids don't have phones, but every w- and I've gone out for dinner with them and their family. They bring paper and, and pen, and colored pencils.

Jonathan Haidt 15:32 Oh, good. Mm-hmm. Right.

Simon Sinek 15:33 And so the kids, like as soon as you get to the dinner table, the kids just start drawing.

Jonathan Haidt 15:37 Mm-hmm. That's great.

Simon Sinek 15:38 They're... And I find that... And like, so, so you're still allowing the kids to be distracted, to do something else-

Jonathan Haidt 15:44 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 15:44 ... except it's, it's analog. And I kind of like, whatever happened to the mom bag filled [chuckles] with-

Jonathan Haidt 15:49 Yeah

Simon Sinek 15:49 ... games and toys and, you know-

Jonathan Haidt 15:51 Mm-hmm. That's right

Simon Sinek 15:51 ... pens and pencils and paper? [chuckles]

Jonathan Haidt 15:53 Yeah. No, that, that's, that's exactly right. Part of, you know, as I'm, as I've been reconstructing the history of how did we get here, like-

Simon Sinek 16:01 Yeah

Jonathan Haidt 16:01 ... how is it that entire generation is now sucked into this terrible, terrible way to grow up? How did this happen? And what I realized is, you have to put yourself back in the year, let's say 2011, 2012, which is when the big transition's happening. And, you know, for those, you know, I mean, I'm, I just turned 60. Um, w- boy, do I remember the fall of the Berlin Wall, the 1990s, the beginning of the internet. I mean, the '90s were incredible, and it was, like, so hopeful. And it was, you know, democracy is gonna rule and the internet is gonna, you know, be the greatest friend of, of democracy, and it's gonna take down tyrants. Um, and then the millennial generation, which grew up with the early internet, um, they mastered it, and they were able to use it in all kinds of ways. Uh, we'll talk, I think you and I might disagree about the millennials versus Gen Z, or maybe we do, we'll find out. But, um, the millennials' mental health actually wasn't much wor- uh, it actually was a, a little better than Gen X. Gen X had the worst mental health of any generation. That might have to do with lead poisoning. That's another topic we can come back to. But, but the millennials, their mental health didn't, didn't plunge.

Jonathan Haidt 17:12 Um, and so we thought, like, well, you know, the internet's amazing. We all love it. Um, these kids are digital natives. They're going to... This is the way of the future. Um, and, uh, uh, the internet is amazing for democracy, so is social media, and look at the Arab Spring, and look at Occupy Wall Street. So, so in 2011, 2012, when you're a d- a parent, say, let's say you're a 35-year-old parent, and you're at dinner, and, you know, you think, "Should I give my kid an iPhone?" I mean, iPhones are amazing. The internet's amazing. The kid's gonna ma-master it anyway. You know, we thought it was okay.

Simon Sinek 17:45 Yeah.

Jonathan Haidt 17:46 We thought maybe we're even helping them. Like, let the, let them get a head start. You know, they're going to be living with these things. Why not let them play with it at age three? I got my first iPhone when my son was two, and he figured, you know, it was incredible.

Simon Sinek 18:00 Yeah.

Jonathan Haidt 18:01 He got the touch and swipe technology. And the fact that I didn't sell everything and buy Apple stock is one of my greatest regrets. I mean, what a product.

Simon Sinek 18:09 Yeah.

Jonathan Haidt 18:09 Uh, this was 2008. So, um, so you have to go back to that time and realize we didn't know what we were doing. We thought that this wasn't gonna harm the kids. And it's really only in 2016, I'd say, after, it's after the Trump election, that's when a lot of people, especially in the blue parts of the country, really began to turn on the internet and social media and see this is causing all kinds of problems. And then, so, so our, our discovery that, that a life online is really, really bad for kids, we didn't actually know that in 2011.

Simon Sinek 18:38 W- w- how would you define the social differences between the Millennial generation and the Gen Z generation? Like, what are the big-

Jonathan Haidt 18:46 So-

Simon Sinek 18:46 ... big markers that make them so, so different?

Jonathan Haidt 18:49 Okay. Yeah, so the big marker, the biggest marker of all, um, is that, um, Millennials grew up with flip phones and Gen Z grew up with iPhones. And the reason why this matters so much is that for Millennials, um, so we'd already ruined childhood by the time the Millennials came along, for a lot of reasons that you've talked about. The over, you know, the, the coddling, the everyone gets a medal.

Simon Sinek 19:13 Yeah.

Jonathan Haidt 19:13 So that was already going on. That began in the '80s. And so you're right to point out that this, you know, changed the Millennials, and it wasn't their fault. You know, it's, it's, none of this is the kids' fault. Obviously, it's, it's structures and parents and things like that.

Simon Sinek 19:26 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jonathan Haidt 19:27 But, um, so the Millennials grew up with- without toughening. Uh, we began to crack down on going outside. So the older Millennials, if you're born in 1981, '82, you know, you, you probably did still play outside. Um, but if you're born in 1990, '91, '92, you probably didn't. You probably were not allowed to go out without an adult watching you.

Simon Sinek 19:48 Mm.

Jonathan Haidt 19:48 Um, that's, it's really the '90s that we s- really stopped letting kids out. And of course, that's just when the crime wave ended. You and I grew up during a huge crime wave-

Simon Sinek 19:57 Mm

Jonathan Haidt 19:57 ... um, in the United States. But it sort of, it mysteriously ends in the '90s. Again, I think that's lead poisoning, but we'll come back to that. Um, so the Millennials actually don't have, uh, as much freedom in childhood. They have a lot of overprotection, but they're still really heavily interacting with each other directly, one-on-one or in small groups.

Simon Sinek 20:17 Mm.

Jonathan Haidt 20:18 Um, they have flip phones, but with a flip phone, again, you're not gonna, like, pour out your heart on a flip phone texting. You use it to talk to one person or text one person. It wasn't all about group calls. So that's the Millennials, and their mental health is actually, as I said, a little better than Gen X. All right, so then we get to 2009, 2010, '11. This is when social media now becomes much nastier. So the Millennials got Facebook in college. You had to have a college account in order to get it for the first few years. So the Millennials had flip phones and no social media when they were going through puberty. They don't get that stuff until they're in college or later.

Simon Sinek 20:55 Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Haidt 20:56 Gen Z, I would define Gen Z as it's the f- it's the first people who got a smartphone and social media at the beginning of puberty.

Simon Sinek 21:05 Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Haidt 21:06 If you go through puberty not playing with your friends, not talking to others, but with, you know, this, you know, this thing in front of your face. I mean, you walk around, you know, in like New York City. Are, um, are you in LA? Where do you live?

Simon Sinek 21:17 I live in LA.

Jonathan Haidt 21:18 Okay, yeah. So, you know, uh, well, maybe nobody walks in LA.

Simon Sinek 21:21 There's no walking in LA.

Jonathan Haidt 21:22 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 21:22 People drive with their phones in front of their faces.

Jonathan Haidt 21:24 Yeah. [both laughing] There you go. There you go. So, um, so that I think is the big difference, that, um, Gen Z went through puberty, especially, it's especially clear with the girls, but it's true for the boys as well. Uh, they went through puberty with a thing that blocked their interactions with others. They don't spend much time with others. Um, and we have a lot of data on this. Kids used to spend a lot of time with their friends, and as soon as you get to 2012, that plummets. It plummets to the point where by 2019, kids were only spending a little bit more time with their friends than their parents were, which is insane. And when they were with their friends, it was a lot like what you just said. They might be physically with their friends, but they're all on their devices. So, you know, as a human being, we're an incredibly social species.

Simon Sinek 22:07 Mm.

Jonathan Haidt 22:07 You can't grow up without a lot of social interaction, but that's

Jonathan Haidt 22:10 what we did to Gen Z.

Simon Sinek 22:11 You, you talk about the irony of democracy, you know, which is we thought the internet would be the greatest thing, you know, for democracy.

Jonathan Haidt 22:18 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 22:18 And it's ended up being sort of, it's the, the-

Jonathan Haidt 22:21 Possibly the worst thing.

Simon Sinek 22:22 Possibly the worst thing for democracy. And you look at-

Jonathan Haidt 22:24 Yeah

Simon Sinek 22:24 ... the way that, uh, more, uh, uh, dictatorial or tyrannical regimes operate.

Jonathan Haidt 22:33 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 22:33 They've, they've cracked down on all of it. And, and, and not always for propaganda purposes. Like we know in China, for example, there's, there are, they too are concerned about their children spending too much time on the phone.

Jonathan Haidt 22:44 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 22:44 And so, you know, it's just not possible. Like the phones-

Jonathan Haidt 22:49 That's right

Simon Sinek 22:49 ... physically don't work for more than a fixed amount of period of t- of time per day.

Jonathan Haidt 22:53 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 22:54 You know? And like they can do that. And you start to think, you know, you know, i- i- is, democracy might be a great form of government for, for choice, but is it the best form of government for, for the, the, the, the, the flourishing of society?

Jonathan Haidt 23:12 Mm-hmm. Right. And that's, and that's the question. That question goes back to Aristotle and Plato. Uh, that's the fundamental question of political theory. What form of government is best? And the lesson of the 20th century-

Simon Sinek 23:23 But, but, but I think it, but I would have def- I, I still believe in democracy, of course.

Jonathan Haidt 23:28 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 23:29 But, but, but this is a, the, the internet and social media have profoundly changed many, many things in our lives.

Jonathan Haidt 23:36 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 23:36 You know, it changes the way innovation works.

Jonathan Haidt 23:38 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 23:38 Innovation used to be a hardware model. Now it's largely a software model. Iterate, iterate, iterate.

Jonathan Haidt 23:42 Mm.

Simon Sinek 23:42 You know? It's changed, uh, the way entrepreneurship work, which is only big companies competed, could compete against big companies.

Jonathan Haidt 23:50 Mm.

Simon Sinek 23:50 Now small companies can compete against big companies-

Jonathan Haidt 23:53 Right, right

Simon Sinek 23:53 ... because of computers and, and, and, and the internet and social media. And it's, it's a huge boon for entrepreneurs. I mean, so it's, it's had profound and, and permanent and, and s- and, and many positive impacts. But we have to look at the liabilities as well. And-

Jonathan Haidt 24:09 Mm

Simon Sinek 24:09 ... again, I go back to the original question where we started, which is the genie's out of the bottle. And I think everybody has their point of view, which is we have to- ... pass legislation to crack down on the social media companies because of their algorithms, and we, we have to censor this, and we have to stop that-

Jonathan Haidt 24:24 Mm

Simon Sinek 24:24 ... and we have to control this and control that and our children. But the reality is we're doing nothing.

Jonathan Haidt 24:28 That's right. We're doing nothing at all. That's right.

Simon Sinek 24:30 We're whining and complaining, and everybody thinks they have the solution-

Jonathan Haidt 24:33 Yeah

Simon Sinek 24:33 ... which none of those, none of those are silver bullets.

Jonathan Haidt 24:36 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Simon Sinek 24:36 And so you, you spend a lot of time looking at this data, and you spend a lot of time, and, and, and you've written and spoken extensively about the damages, and the collective action that you're talking about, which I agree with, social animals can only cure social problems socially.

Jonathan Haidt 24:53 Right.

Simon Sinek 24:54 Um, but it- we're left back at s- at point one, which is how do I even organize people to do that-

Jonathan Haidt 25:03 Yeah

Simon Sinek 25:03 ... when the very, the very thing that I need to organize them, which is the internet, is being used-

Jonathan Haidt 25:08 Mm-hmm. Yeah

Simon Sinek 25:09 ... to organize disorganization. [chuckles]

Jonathan Haidt 25:11 Mm-hmm. That's right.

Simon Sinek 25:11 This is getting deeply philosophical.

Jonathan Haidt 25:13 That's right. Okay. So

Jonathan Haidt 25:14 we've got, we got so many threads here.

Simon Sinek 25:15 I, I mean, look-

Jonathan Haidt 25:16 I'll tell you what. Let's do, let's do-

Simon Sinek 25:17 Do you, are you free for the next, are you free for the next four hours?

Jonathan Haidt 25:19 [laughs] Well, I'm, I'm ki- I plan to work on this basically until I die, so yeah. [chuckles] Um, how about let's trace out the democracy threads, and then I really wanna talk about the effect it's having in the workplace and on entrepreneurship.

Simon Sinek 25:33 Yes.

Jonathan Haidt 25:33 I mean, here I am teaching at a business school, and I haven't really been keeping up with trends in, in, in work culture over the last couple years, whereas you have.

Simon Sinek 25:41 Yeah.

Jonathan Haidt 25:41 So let's do the democracy thing, and then we'll go to entrepreneurship and business. [lip smack] Um, the, uh, uh, my friend Tristan Harris of the Center for Humane Technology has long made the argument that digital technology is helping authoritarian countries be better authoritarian countries.

Simon Sinek 25:57 Yes.

Jonathan Haidt 25:57 If you're China, you know, in Mao, in the era of Mao or Stalin, like they had to have secret police forces that were brutal, but they couldn't be everywhere. Now they can be everywhere.

Simon Sinek 26:06 Yeah.

Jonathan Haidt 26:06 So, so the digital technology is, is a tremendous boon to China, and that includes all the, you know, the cameras and the AI for face recognition. So you, you take all of it. China is in much better shape because of the technological revolution. Democracy, on the other hand, has all these really well-known weaknesses, known since the time of Plato, who said that democracy is the second worst form of government because it inevitably decays into tyranny. And he was talking about direct democracy. Because people are passionate, they're easily led astray, they respond to demagogues. And so the American Founding Fathers knew all this. They read Plato and Aristotle. They, they knew political theory and history. And James Madison said, "Well, how do we design it so that the people don't get to make the laws and rules? The people choose the representatives, and then the representatives are somewhat insulated from the people's passions so that they can actually think together and, and debate and come up with policies. Then the people get to throw them out if they're not happy." That was the system they gave us, and boy did that work in the Gutenberg era, the era that was based on print. Um, now in the network era, the problems Madison was trying to fix are overwhelmed. I mean, those problems are 10X, 100X-

Simon Sinek 27:16 Mm-hmm

Jonathan Haidt 27:16 ... for the reasons we've been talking about. If the citizens aren't just like voting on Election Day for who they want, they're rather opining at every moment so that Congress people... I mean, you see this. You know, uh, Ted Cruz, he once, uh, I was, I was testifying remotely at a, a Senate hearing on, on social media regulation. And Ted Cruz, um, gives this... Oh, actually, wait, I'm sorry. Previously, Ted Cruz had given this bombastic speech on the Senate floor, and then he sat down and he was caught on camera instantly checking his Twitter feed to see how his Senate speech played.

Simon Sinek 27:49 Mm-hmm. Mm.

Jonathan Haidt 27:50 So if our politicians-

Simon Sinek 27:51 Mm

Jonathan Haidt 27:51 ... are being held captive to this instant feedback from whatever random stranger, boy, does that pervert democracy. And then the funny thing that I got confused is then, like a few months later, I was testifying, um, just by Zoom to, on a hearing about regulation, and I gave the example of a senator, uh, who, um, was caught checking, you know, i, i, i, i, i was asked whether this would affect Congress. I said, "Yes," and I gave the example, I didn't mention names, of a senator, you know, who was caught doing this. And then it turns out Ted Cruz was in the room, and he then, uh, asked his question of me, which was actually not really a question even. It was just, he just went on and on and on about his number of Twitter followers. Like, that was what he wanted to talk about, was how he thought Twitter was discriminated against him. Anyway, all I'm saying is, man, is this messing up democracy-

Simon Sinek 28:41 Mm

Jonathan Haidt 28:41 ... as we had in America.

Simon Sinek 28:43 Well, I, I, and the, there... Oh, I could go so, uh, this rabbit hole is deep.

Jonathan Haidt 28:48 Yeah. Lots of directions.

Simon Sinek 28:49 This rabbit hole is deep. So, so it goes back to your, the arena analogy.

Jonathan Haidt 28:54 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 28:55 Which is we've now put our politicians in the center of the arena, and we want blood, and we want a performance. And we know that they grandstand and perform for the cameras. We're like, "This is not news."

Jonathan Haidt 29:05 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 29:05 But, but, uh, but it's not just CNN and the nightly news now. It's the, as you said, it's the instant gratification. And I've been told by some of the old-timer congressmen that there was a time where they would grandstand 20% for the cameras-

Jonathan Haidt 29:19 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 29:19 ... and then 80% of the date, debate was behind closed doors.

Jonathan Haidt 29:22 That's right. Yeah. That's right.

Simon Sinek 29:23 And, and now it's 100% for the cameras.

Jonathan Haidt 29:26 Yep.

Simon Sinek 29:26 And even when the new Speaker of the House was elected, like the number of people who said, "I don't even know him." Like I've, I've-

Jonathan Haidt 29:31 Oh my God. I didn't know that.

Simon Sinek 29:32 No.

Jonathan Haidt 29:32 Wow.

Simon Sinek 29:33 Oh, the number of, of congressmen who said, "I, I don't even know the guy."

Jonathan Haidt 29:37 Oh, that's incredible.

Simon Sinek 29:38 And so we, w- I mean, there's not that many of them. There's a few hundred of them.

Jonathan Haidt 29:41 Right. Right.

Simon Sinek 29:41 And-

Jonathan Haidt 29:42 But they don't socialize anymore. They don't-

Simon Sinek 29:43 And they don't socialize anymore. And they, and, and, and there was a time when you moved your whole family to Washington-

Jonathan Haidt 29:48 Yep

Simon Sinek 29:48 ... you know, and, and your kids integrated into the school systems, and then-

Jonathan Haidt 29:52 Exactly

Simon Sinek 29:53 ... you went to the baseball games, and you went to the PTA meetings, and you went to school plays, and you saw people of the opposite party sitting in the stands with you, and you socialized. And they didn't-

Jonathan Haidt 30:02 Absolutely.

Simon Sinek 30:02 They, they didn't, they may or may not have been friends, but they were social, and they were civil, and they saw each other as human.

Jonathan Haidt 30:07 Exactly.

Simon Sinek 30:07 They saw each other as parents.

Jonathan Haidt 30:09 Yep.

Simon Sinek 30:09 And now they spend most of their time back in their home states, they say doing the work of their people, but let's be honest, it's fundraising.

Jonathan Haidt 30:16 Fundraising.

Simon Sinek 30:17 And, and they spend very little time in Washington. They, and rarely move their families to Washington anymore. So they don't even see each other as human anymore, and they don't know each other. And so how can, how can a governing class govern and it be expected to-

Jonathan Haidt 30:30 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 30:30 ... find common ground with people who they only view as the enemy or an abst- worse, worse, an abstract enemy, which is the, which is the worst kind. Inhuman, right, and unhuman. Um, so what we're really r- talking about in all of these things is the restoration of humanity.

Jonathan Haidt 30:53 Yeah. That's right.

Simon Sinek 30:53 Whether it's, whether it's teenagers spending time with teenagers, and they all put their phones-

Jonathan Haidt 30:57 Yeah

Simon Sinek 30:58 ... in a, in a bucket when they come in the house.

Jonathan Haidt 31:00 Hmm.

Simon Sinek 31:01 You know? It's like, I mean, like I, I mean, I, I-

Jonathan Haidt 31:03 That's a good connection

Simon Sinek 31:03 ... uh, you know, which is, it's the same thing, right? It's the same thing, which is if invite all the kids over for a playdate-

Jonathan Haidt 31:09 Yeah

Simon Sinek 31:09 ... and call the parents and say, "If you need your kid, call me. Here's my phone number-"

Jonathan Haidt 31:14 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 31:14 "... because I've taken all the kids' phones away."

Jonathan Haidt 31:15 Yes. Oh, that's great. Oh, I'm gonna write this down 'cause that's the, that's a piece of advice I'm gonna give to parents. Thank you.

Simon Sinek 31:20 Right? Like c-c-

Jonathan Haidt 31:21 Yeah

Simon Sinek 31:21 ... like, "Here's my phone number. Your kid's coming over to my house. I'm taking your kid's phone away while they're playing. Call me if they need anyth- if you need anything."

Jonathan Haidt 31:29 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 31:30 And, and, and, and it's, it is, it is... And it's, they, I, I know somebody who did this, which is they, they, they were really stressed out about their, um,

Simon Sinek 31:42 kids being addicted to their phones. They decided to go on a family vacation, and they forced-

Jonathan Haidt 31:46 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 31:46 ... their kids to leave the ph- the phones at home.

Jonathan Haidt 31:48 Uh-huh.

Simon Sinek 31:48 So that was fight number one.

Jonathan Haidt 31:50 [chuckles] Uh, of course.

Simon Sinek 31:52 But turns out the parents prevailed 'cause the kids are, you know, 13, you know?

Jonathan Haidt 31:55 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 31:56 Um, and they brought one phone because you gotta have a phone, right?

Jonathan Haidt 32:01 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 32:02 And apparently the first two or three days of the vacation were absolutely awful.

Jonathan Haidt 32:09 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 32:09 Fighting and yelling, and, "I want my phone," and, "I miss my friends." And then after about two or three days, apparently they all forgot, and they had the most incredible time, and they bonded as a family. Nobody missed their phones.

Jonathan Haidt 32:23 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 32:23 And it was magical. The point is, like any addiction, there's gonna be some, some, some side effects. You're, you, you're gonna have some-

Jonathan Haidt 32:30 Exactly. Withdrawal symptoms

Simon Sinek 32:32 ... you're gonna have withdrawal symptoms, and you have to allow-

Jonathan Haidt 32:34 Yeah

Simon Sinek 32:34 ... and the problem is, is we take these phones away from the kids, and they act out, and then we immediately give it back. And like any drug addict, you just, it sucks and it's awful-

Jonathan Haidt 32:42 Yeah

Simon Sinek 32:42 ... but you gotta allow the withdrawal symptoms to, to, to, to go through.

Jonathan Haidt 32:46 That's right. Absolutely. That's right, and that's why summer camp is so important. In American society right now, it's very hard to get your kid off for long enough for the withdrawal symptoms to subside, for the dopamine neurons to reset to their base- normal baseline level. Um, but summer camp, sending your kid away for three or four weeks minimum, where most, most summer camps do ban the phones. I gave a talk to a group of summer camp c- uh, administrators. Most of them do confiscate the phones, thank God. Uh, nobody should send their kid to a camp that doesn't confiscate the phones. Um, and I hear the same story very often. The kid comes back from camp, it's the sweet, you know, it's the sweet 11, you know, 11-year-old that I used to know. You know, I have a 12 or 13-year-old girl, let's say, and she became all, you know, cranky and negative. Um, you send her to camp, and you get your child back for a couple of weeks, and then they go back on their phones, and the ugly personality returns.

Simon Sinek 33:38 I-I-Isn't it ironic that parents are comfortable that their kids' phones are taken away at summer camp where, where they will legitimately, like, fall off horses and break their arm, you know?

Jonathan Haidt 33:49 Yeah. Yeah.

Simon Sinek 33:49 But we don't wanna take their phones away when they're just at school and we have to figure out what time to pick them up.

Jonathan Haidt 33:54 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 33:54 Like, there's a great irony in that.

Jonathan Haidt 33:58 Well, you know, in part it's the logist- I mean, the logistics is, is a piece of it, the idea that the, your kids are being cared for by someone else, so you can step back. But what I'm learning, you know, since I sent my kids to, my daughter especially, to summer camp, it's now the norm that you get photos every day.

Simon Sinek 34:14 Yeah.

Jonathan Haidt 34:14 Somebody goes around, takes thousands of photos.

Simon Sinek 34:18 Yeah.

Jonathan Haidt 34:18 And AI, there's a, whatever this camp, my, I don't remember what it's called, but there's this company, they use AI to find the pictures of your child and send you a customized set of reports. So what this means is that your kid's at summer camp away from you for three or four weeks, but every day the kid has to perform for the camera because mom and dad might be watching. It's insane.

Simon Sinek 34:38 Yeah.

Jonathan Haidt 34:38 So I, I would urge, I would urge summer camps to stop doing that. Send a few group photos every weekend-

Simon Sinek 34:44 Yeah

Jonathan Haidt 34:44 ... not during the week. Um, and I would urge parents to ask that.

Simon Sinek 34:49 Yeah.

Jonathan Haidt 34:49 Ask that of the camp. Say, "Please," you know, "would you consider not sending photos every day? It's bad for everyone."

Simon Sinek 34:55 Yeah. So, so going back to the previous, to the previous line of thought, which is this re-socialization, so forcing kids to play amongst themselves with the parents intervening and taking phones away is not dissimilar to forcing congressmen to-

Jonathan Haidt 35:08 Mm-hmm. [chuckles] Yes

Simon Sinek 35:08 ... get locally. I think they should move their families to Washington.

Jonathan Haidt 35:12 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 35:12 You know, if you wanna represent the nation, you should move your family to Washington and live there.

Jonathan Haidt 35:17 That's right.

Simon Sinek 35:17 Um, and, and, and that started, I think, in the '90s. It was, uh, it was the, it came with-

Jonathan Haidt 35:21 Newt Gingrich

Simon Sinek 35:21 ... Newt Gingrich was the one who said, "Go back home." Right. Exactly.

Jonathan Haidt 35:25 Well, right, 'cause he changed the schedule. He said, "We will only do business Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday."

Simon Sinek 35:29 Right.

Jonathan Haidt 35:30 "So you don't have to be. You just fly in on Monday night or Tuesday morning. You can fly out Thursday evening."

Simon Sinek 35:35 Right.

Jonathan Haidt 35:35 Um, and, and then you don't even rent an apartment. You just share, you sh- you know, you share a place with a few other Congress people in your party. So yeah, we drained the... Your point about humanity is great 'cause it, I didn't see that, but it is, it's the same thing with the kids. Kids need to be interacting with each other-

Simon Sinek 35:51 Yeah

Jonathan Haidt 35:51 ... and we've drained that out, and politicians need to be interacting with each other-

Simon Sinek 35:55 Yeah

Jonathan Haidt 35:55 ... and we've drained that out.

Simon Sinek 35:56 Yeah.

Jonathan Haidt 35:56 And so we're surprised that the system doesn't work.

Simon Sinek 35:58 Yeah. Yeah.

Jonathan Haidt 36:00 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 36:00 W- Are you, are you hopeful, hopeful for democracy?

Jonathan Haidt 36:06 I'm hopeful for the kids. I really think we can solve this. I'm not hopeful for democracy. Um, I think as long as the internet's, not the internet. The problem's not the internet per se. The internet per se is amazing. We all love it. Nobody's considering either, you know, that's inconceivable to To not have the internet. Um, social media is not the internet. As long as social media stays the way it is-

Simon Sinek 36:28 Yeah

Jonathan Haidt 36:28 ... and the US Congress stays the way it is, I am not hopeful at all for our country. Now, on the kids' side, it's totally bipartisan.

Simon Sinek 36:36 Yeah, yeah.

Jonathan Haidt 36:36 This is why I think we're gonna win there.

Simon Sinek 36:37 Yeah.

Jonathan Haidt 36:37 But on the democracy side, because the right believes that the left is censoring them online, and there's probably some truth to that.

Simon Sinek 36:44 Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Haidt 36:44 Um, and my God, the new, the new Google AI, what a disaster-

Simon Sinek 36:50 Mm-hmm

Jonathan Haidt 36:50 ... for Google to put out an AI that is, you know, radical left identitarian woke lecturing obnoxious, um, you know. I mean, why should the right ever trust Google now?

Simon Sinek 37:01 Yeah.

Jonathan Haidt 37:02 When Google's basically shown, "We're not here to find the truth. We're here to make you, uh, endorse these, you know, these progressive values."

Simon Sinek 37:08 Yeah.

Jonathan Haidt 37:09 Um, so this is part of why I'm, I'm very concerned, and I don't see a way out, frankly.

Simon Sinek 37:16 Mm. Ugh. Can you tell me something that you've been engaged in or done in your career, anything, commercially successful or not, doesn't matter, academic- academically successful or not, it doesn't matter. But something you've been engaged in, something you've done, a project you've worked on that you absolutely loved, and you wish everything you ever do could be like this one thing for the rest of your life.

Jonathan Haidt 37:36 Oh, wow. Well, I would actually say this one. Um, this one, the, uh, the, the, um, Changing Childhood project. Um, in college, I ran a gun control group in the state of Connecticut, and that was totally hopeless, and we got nothing done. Um, I've been involved in various progressive movements and causes where we tried to persuade people of things and, you know, very hard to do and got nothing done. Um, I helped on some messaging campaigns, how do we change people's minds. Very hard to do, didn't get much done. And now I'm working on this problem, this gigantic problem, the biggest one I've ever worked on. Um, and I don't have to persuade people. Like, everyone is fed up with the phones. Pa- most parents are fed up. They're upset about what's happening. They just don't know what to do. So all I have to do is... So first of all, I got to spend the last four years thinking about this in, really deeply and doing a lot of research, and that's what is my greatest pleasure, is really trying to figure something out using the tools of, of various social sciences.

Simon Sinek 38:36 Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Haidt 38:36 So that was a joy. And then I come up with these recommendations, and they're very easy to do, and there's no opposition. And so here they are. Here are the four norms. If we do these four things, we can so- we can, not solve, but we'll really improve teen, uh, children's mental health. One, no smartphone before high school. Two, no social media before 16. Three, phone-free schools. And four, more, um, um, independence, free play, and responsibility in the real world, the, the free-range kids.

Simon Sinek 39:08 Mm.

Jonathan Haidt 39:08 Those four things, they cost essentially nothing, maybe some phone lockers you'd have to buy. So they're easy. They're, they cost nothing. They're totally bipartisan. There's no culture war issue here at all.

Simon Sinek 39:18 Mm.

Jonathan Haidt 39:19 Um, and most parents wanna do it. So I'm

Jonathan Haidt 39:22 incredibly excited that I get to be part of and a contributor to what I think is going to be one of the most successful social movements and the fastest ever.

Simon Sinek 39:31 Mm.

Jonathan Haidt 39:32 Um, that is, I think within, by the end of 2025, I think we're gonna have different norms about-

Simon Sinek 39:37 Mm

Jonathan Haidt 39:38 ... childhood. 'Cause the ones we got now, they only started, you know, 10, 15 years ago. They're very new, and they're terrible, and we have to get rid of them.

Simon Sinek 39:46 Tell me an early specific happy childhood memory.

Jonathan Haidt 39:49 Oh, gosh. Um, one of the most exciting things was my best friend and I, Christer was his name, um, we, we would sometimes cut through this church parking lot where there was a school, and the kids there got mad at us for cutting through. And before we knew it, we were having a rock fight with them. Um, but it was, looking back on it, like we ha- we made rules, like you can't aim for the face. You know, the, y- if someone gets hurt, you have to pause and, and let them, you know. So it was just so exciting to have play war. Uh, now, I, I didn't realize it at the time, but, you know, boys really seek out play war, and, uh, that was one of the few times that we actually got it when you really could get hurt. And something I've learned in writing this book is that thrills and the f- and the real risk of physical injury is actually the best kind of play. It does something to your nervous system to help you learn to deal with risk. Whereas boys who are on, uh, playing Fortnite, let's say, they're jumping out of planes, they're stabbing each other, but there's no fear. There's no risk. So, um, so yeah, a- any sort of memory where, you know, there, there was a team versus team situation. How's that? Can you work with that?

Simon Sinek 40:57 I mean, so, so of all the fun things you did as a kid, what is it about the throwing of the rocks and... Because you're thinking of one particular time where there was this rock war, right?

Jonathan Haidt 41:05 Yeah. That's right.

Simon Sinek 41:06 What, what do, what do you think is the reason that that stands out?

Jonathan Haidt 41:09 Excitement. It was incredibly exciting.

Simon Sinek 41:12 Yeah.

Jonathan Haidt 41:12 Um, and I don't even remember if we won or not. Like, I think we finally called it off. I don't remember.

Simon Sinek 41:18 Right.

Jonathan Haidt 41:18 Um, but, but it's things like that where you're taking chances, you're doing something new, and it, I, you know, I think a lot about evolution. Um, oh, like the first time I played paintball with my buddies when we were 30, that was ecstatic because, again, it was play war that we didn't even know that we loved so much. We'd never done paintball.

Simon Sinek 41:37 Yeah.

Jonathan Haidt 41:37 But there's something about a, a small group of guys hunting another group of guys and taking aim at them and shooting them and trying to win is incredibly thrilling.

Simon Sinek 41:46 It, yeah. I, I have done it. [chuckles] And if you don't get hit, it's really fun.

Jonathan Haidt 41:50 It, that's right. And it's important. I've played laser tag too, and that's pathetic.

Simon Sinek 41:54 Yeah.

Jonathan Haidt 41:54 Laser tag, there's no pain.

Simon Sinek 41:55 Right.

Jonathan Haidt 41:55 Whereas paintball, it does, it hurts to get hit.

Simon Sinek 41:58 Yeah.

Jonathan Haidt 41:58 And that's crucial. That's crucial 'cause then you really care.

Simon Sinek 42:01 This is so interesting. So what I, what I find so interesting about the, the project you're working on now is, is, you know, all the other things you did, it was about convincing, convincing, convincing, convincing.

Jonathan Haidt 42:09 Uh-huh.

Simon Sinek 42:10 And th- this one stands out because there's no convincing required. It's simply action, right?

Jonathan Haidt 42:16 It's, it, that's right. Well, it's, it's even simpler. People are ready to act. They just don't know what to do.

Simon Sinek 42:21 They just don't know what to do.

Jonathan Haidt 42:21 So all I, all I have to do is show them what to do. So, so I just, I, I just, uh, I think in metaphors, and I just, uh, earlier today, I was thinking, you know, yeah, things could really change fast, like, like with the fall of the East Bloc. And I was thinking, you know, I think things are gonna change as fast as they did with the fall of communism.

Simon Sinek 42:41 Yeah.

Jonathan Haidt 42:41 And the reason is because I traveled through the East Bloc, uh, 1987. Everyone hated it. There were no, there were no real communists. Everyone hated it, but they only went along out of fear.

Simon Sinek 42:52 Sure.

Jonathan Haidt 42:52 Because if you raise your voice, you'll be jailed and tortured and killed or whatever. [lip smack] Well, it's the same thing now. Uh, Gen Z hates this childhood. I have not found a sin- literally not a single defen- like, nobody in Gen Z is saying, "No, don't take away social media. No, don't take away our phones. We love our pho-" Uh, no. Nobody is saying that. Gen Z realizes, they recognize they're messed up by this. Um, thi- this is ruining their generation. This is ruining their mental health. Uh, why are you on it? Fear of missing out, fear of being the only one out. So if you have a situation where most of the kids don't like it, most of the parents don't like it, all of the teachers don't like it, uh, it, no one's happy with this.

Simon Sinek 43:34 Mm.

Jonathan Haidt 43:35 But we just don't know what to do-

Simon Sinek 43:37 Mm

Jonathan Haidt 43:37 ... to get rid of it. And I think that in, in my book, I basically have been able to say, you know, "Here's where we are. Here's how we got here. Four norms will get us most of the way out."

Simon Sinek 43:45 Th- th- there's a common, there's, there's something here about relieving tension, right? Which is, you know, they, these kids hated you, uh, when you walked through the, through their, uh, school to cut through-

Jonathan Haidt 43:55 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 43:55 ... you know, to cut home.

Jonathan Haidt 43:56 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 43:56 And the, the tension was relieved by giving them an outlet, right?

Jonathan Haidt 44:00 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 44:01 Where, whi- which is to, to, to start throwing rocks at each other, to start playing-

Jonathan Haidt 44:04 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 44:04 ... to, to, to, to, uh, uh... And, and the, the, the same is true for what you're doing with the, the, the work you're doing now, which is you're giving an outlet. You're relieving a tension. Everybody knows it's built up.

Jonathan Haidt 44:15 Mm.

Simon Sinek 44:16 And in all the other cases of convincing, you tried to create a tension.

Jonathan Haidt 44:20 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 44:20 Right? That's what convincing is about.

Jonathan Haidt 44:22 Mm-hmm. That's right.

Simon Sinek 44:22 Right? And, and I think where, where you-

Jonathan Haidt 44:24 Yeah. Oh, yeah, you're right. You're right. That's good. I hadn't thought of it that way.

Simon Sinek 44:28 Right? And so I think-

Jonathan Haidt 44:29 Yeah

Simon Sinek 44:29 ... where you are, you're most fulfilled, but also where your work seems to be the most passionate is, and it's an ironic thing for an academic bec- you know, but which is it's about the relieving of tension, giving people an outlet.

Jonathan Haidt 44:41 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 44:41 Which is, "I hate this, I hate this, I hate this." Well, you know you could just do these three things. You could just start a s- a, a, a, a, a, a, a war here, uh, uh, a s-

Jonathan Haidt 44:49 [laughs]

Simon Sinek 44:49 You could just start throwing rocks.

Jonathan Haidt 44:51 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 44:51 You know? 'Cause there's a tension. "We hate you. Stop walking through our thing." It's like, well, we hate the cell phones. Like, we hate each other. It's like when you talk about morality, it's like you talk about people hating each other. But, but I think where your work shines is when you give us, when, when, when you're not convincing us, but you're pointing out the thing that we already know, which is the tension.

Jonathan Haidt 45:10 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 45:11 And then you offer us-

Jonathan Haidt 45:12 I'm illuminating something that we already think of

Simon Sinek 45:13 ... you're illu- illuminating the thing that we already know rather than trying to convince us or show something, and then offer us just one or two ways to relieve the tension, and we rush towards them.

Jonathan Haidt 45:24 Yeah. That's right. Tha- thank you. That is a perfect, I, that, I love that, and that is what happened in the UK over the last month. The UK is ready to tip. The parents have, are fed up and, you know, some, some, some mothers put up a site about delay smartphones and, uh, you know, and parents are rushing to it. So I think we're, we're there i-i in America. Uh, but thank you for that, thinking about, like, relieving tension rather than trying to change-

Simon Sinek 45:48 Yeah

Jonathan Haidt 45:48 ... change people's minds. Hey, before, I don't know how much time we have, but let's be sure to talk about the workplace, 'cause here's where I wanna ask you some questions.

Simon Sinek 45:54 Yes. Yes, let's talk about that. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Jonathan Haidt 45:55 Okay. Right. So you have this great, this great clip where you go o- you, you, you explain what's happened to millennials.

Simon Sinek 46:02 Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Haidt 46:03 Um, and you know, how it, you know, because of the phones and the overprotection, all those things-

Simon Sinek 46:07 Yeah

Jonathan Haidt 46:07 ... and they haven't learned to do things that are hard. They're not patient. [lip smack] And, uh, I forget what year you, you gave that. That was, it was before COVID. Um-

Simon Sinek 46:16 It was, uh, it was, I think it, I think it went, that, I mean, I was giving that answer for quite a while, but I think that clip went viral, I think, in like 2017 or 2018.

Jonathan Haidt 46:24 Okay. So you were talking about millennials almost entirely. Millennials are those born between about 1981 and 1995, uh, or six. Pew says 1996. Anyway, um, you're talking about people born in the '80s and early '90s, and all the things that you say in that are true except the mental health piece. That is, their levels of, their levels of depression and anxiety were actually not higher than the previous generation. Everything you say about mental health is true about Gen Z. That is, and that might've been what you were referring to, because you talked about how the suicide rate is up, and that is true. Wasn't up for millennials, was down for millennials.

Simon Sinek 47:06 Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Haidt 47:06 Uh, Gen X had very high rates of suicide. Millennials had much lower rates.

Simon Sinek 47:10 Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Haidt 47:10 And then it only starts going up around 2009. It only starts going up as Gen Z is, is coming in. So, um, so a lot of what you said, almost all what you said is true about, about the millennials, um, and in a sense, it's what every generation has said to some extent, what every generation has said about the younger one.

Simon Sinek 47:31 Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Haidt 47:31 Although some, I'm sorry, actually, some of the instant gratification ones are unique to, to our time. Anyway, so all I wanted to say is, if you take all the things you said about the difficulties that managers are having working with millennials-

Simon Sinek 47:41 Mm

Jonathan Haidt 47:42 ... they're far more true for Gen Z.

Simon Sinek 47:44 Yeah. Yeah.

Jonathan Haidt 47:44 Gen Z is much more messed up in those ways, um, than the millennials were.

Simon Sinek 47:50 So, so we'll probably cut this out because this is a little inside baseball, but the, the f- f- one of the things that, um, frustrates me as somebody who studied cultural anthropology-

Jonathan Haidt 47:59 Hmm

Simon Sinek 47:59 ... which is generation used to mean 20 years.

Jonathan Haidt 48:04 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 48:04 Right? So, like-

Jonathan Haidt 48:05 Yeah

Simon Sinek 48:05 ... it was really easy to calculate, even though it's rough around the edges. So the eas- we start with the baby boomers 'cause they're the s- they're the easiest.

Jonathan Haidt 48:12 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 48:12 Our p- you know, their parents-

Jonathan Haidt 48:13 46

Simon Sinek 48:13 ... came back from war.

Jonathan Haidt 48:15 Yep.

Simon Sinek 48:15 Started having fun, 1945, 1946, they had a-

Jonathan Haidt 48:18 Yep

Simon Sinek 48:18 ... bunch of kids, and 20 years lat- so that's, that's your boomer.

Jonathan Haidt 48:23 Uh-huh.

Simon Sinek 48:23 Plus 20 takes you to 1964-

Jonathan Haidt 48:26 That's right

Simon Sinek 48:26 ... 1965, 1966, and then-

Jonathan Haidt 48:28 That's Gen X

Simon Sinek 48:29 ... and that's Gen X till about 1984, '85, '86. So some are younger, some are older. Like, it spanned a generation, and then so Gen Y, millennials, is about 84-ish to about 2004-ish, and then, and then you keep adding 20 years. And for some reason, and I don't understand the r- why, maybe it's just because it's pop culture. We never used to talk about, quote-unquote, "the generations." But we've never bifurcated or trifurcated, you know, Gen X into anything less than 20 years, or the Boomers into anything less than 20 years.

Jonathan Haidt 49:02 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 49:02 But these modern generations we're, we're slicing them into five and 10 year, you know-

Jonathan Haidt 49:06 Yeah. That's right. No, well, that's right, because, so Jean Twenge has an important book here called Generations, and she makes the argument that many people assume that a generation is defined by something that happened in the world.

Simon Sinek 49:18 Right.

Jonathan Haidt 49:18 So, World War II happened, boy, does that create a new generation. But what she shows is that perhaps a bigger influence, especially in the post-war world, is the technology-

Simon Sinek 49:28 Yes

Jonathan Haidt 49:28 ... that we have as kids.

Simon Sinek 49:29 Yeah.

Jonathan Haidt 49:30 And so, since the technology is changing faster and faster, so are the generations.

Simon Sinek 49:33 So, so it's, it's, the way I've defined it is just, uh, shared experience as, y- as you're growing up. Like, you know, if you-

Jonathan Haidt 49:40 That's, yeah, but it's, it's, it's, so I think I would actually say it as, as the Marshall McLuhan quote, "The medium is the message."

Simon Sinek 49:48 Yeah.

Jonathan Haidt 49:49 So, if you grew up on radio, that was one thing, but if you grew up on television, now you're more passive. McLuhan said you're more passive, and Neil Postman also. You, everything's entertainment. You sit there, you stare at the screen. That's what you do.

Simon Sinek 50:01 Yeah.

Jonathan Haidt 50:02 And that changes a generation. And then you get, you know, then you get the early internet, and th- and that is gonna change, you know, what people are doing. That's gonna change them. And then you get social media becoming nasty. I mean, early social media wasn't so bad. It becomes nasty two-

Simon Sinek 50:15 Yeah

Jonathan Haidt 50:15 ... you know, 2010 to '11, '12. Um, so, so that's why tech, generations are now much shorter than 20 years.

Simon Sinek 50:21 So anyway, so w- w- but, you know, so e- e- e- even that's true, th- these things are poorly defined as to what the years are.

Jonathan Haidt 50:29 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 50:30 But, but nonetheless-

Jonathan Haidt 50:30 There's some disagreement

Simon Sinek 50:30 ... so, so, so, so I, but I, but I, but broad strokes, I completely agree with you. You know, the, the thing that I find fascinating about this young generation at work is-

Jonathan Haidt 50:40 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 50:40 ... um, uh, very uncomfortable with discomfort.

Jonathan Haidt 50:44 Mm-hmm. Yep, absolutely.

Simon Sinek 50:45 Getting in trouble, being told you didn't do good work, you know, creates, you know, um, the, how comfortable they are quitting without another job.

Jonathan Haidt 50:55 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, right.

Simon Sinek 50:55 I, which is entirely new to, uh, your, you and me, like you and I couldn't imagine quitting a job without another job lined up.

Jonathan Haidt 51:04 Yeah, that's right.

Simon Sinek 51:04 You know, you, you have a series of dental appointments that you keep going to, although you're wearing a suit-

Jonathan Haidt 51:08 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 51:08 ... for those dental appointments, you know, and then eventually you quit, you know? Uh-

Jonathan Haidt 51:12 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 51:13 ... um, but that happens. Um, uh, the other thing is the, for the younger generation, which is rightfully so demanding that you w- you, like having boundaries and, and, and telling people about your own boundaries.

Jonathan Haidt 51:28 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 51:28 But seemingly having no respect for other people's boundaries. [laughs]

Jonathan Haidt 51:31 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Simon Sinek 51:32 There's that great irony.

Jonathan Haidt 51:33 Right.

Simon Sinek 51:33 "Respect my boundaries, but I'm allowed to not respect yours."

Jonathan Haidt 51:37 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 51:37 And, and there's just, and I, and I, I think if you go through the patterns of all of these things, I think what it reveals is, is, uh, is, um, loose-footedness, unsure, a, a, a great unsureness, you know? Not 100% knowing who I am, where I stand, what the future is, and I think, I think uncertainty is one of the worst things you can give to someone, you know?

Jonathan Haidt 52:03 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 52:03 This is how dictators rule. It's n- they're not always evil. They, they generate cr- tremendous uncertainty. It was said of Saddam Hussein that when you got called to his h- palace-

Jonathan Haidt 52:12 Mm-hmm. [laughs]

Simon Sinek 52:12 ... you didn't know if you were gonna be executed or given a Mercedes.

Jonathan Haidt 52:14 Right. [laughs] My God, yeah.

Simon Sinek 52:16 And so-

Jonathan Haidt 52:16 Yeah, people have thought that

Simon Sinek 52:16 ... and this is how con artists work, right? This is how con artists work. Which is, or, or, or, or master manipulators. Master manipulators, they're, they're nice one day and horrible the next, and screaming at you and then showering you with love.

Jonathan Haidt 52:29 Mm. Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 52:30 And, and it's the uncertainty and keeping you off balance that makes you so susceptible to control. Um, because if you're just mean-

Jonathan Haidt 52:37 Interesting

Simon Sinek 52:37 ... I just either hate you or leave you, you know?

Jonathan Haidt 52:39 Right. Right.

Simon Sinek 52:40 And so I think that they're living in a, in a society where they're so battered around, and there's such a lack of, uh, uh, sure-footedness that I think it has, I think it has these ripples that w- what we are complaining about, but they're really symptoms of something else, and I think it all boils down to self-confidence. And if, if any parent, and we're going right back to your work about s- social media and cell phones, if any parent cares about the s- the self-confidence of their children, please, I beg of you, reduce the a- the, the access to cell phones and social media.

Jonathan Haidt 53:14 That's right. A- yeah, absolutely, but if you're gonna take those things away, you must give them something to do.

Simon Sinek 53:20 That builds their confidence.

Jonathan Haidt 53:21 That something to do... That's right. That, that's right. And that something to do should be hang out with other kids, do things with other kids.

Simon Sinek 53:27 Yes. Yes.

Jonathan Haidt 53:27 That's what they really need.

Simon Sinek 53:28 Yes. And ev- exactly. And I think the thing that we think builds people's self-confidence, just telling them they're great. That's not what does it.

Jonathan Haidt 53:36 Oh, no, no.

Simon Sinek 53:37 You know, let- letting them solve problems-

Jonathan Haidt 53:38 Yeah

Simon Sinek 53:38 ... with, with each other.

Jonathan Haidt 53:39 Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 53:39 Letting t- them figure things out together, letting them fight, letting them resolve.

Jonathan Haidt 53:43 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 53:44 You know, being-

Jonathan Haidt 53:45 Mm-hmm

Simon Sinek 53:45 ... a kid is difficult. It sucks, and it's, especially being an adolescent. I mean, it's really hard. [laughs]

Jonathan Haidt 53:50 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Simon Sinek 53:51 Um, and we, we, we as parents wanna coddle as much as we can, but there is, and you, you definitely know this, there is such thing as over-coddling.

Jonathan Haidt 54:00 Well, well, that's right. I mean, kids are anti-fragile. Um, and, um, uh, let's see. Oh, what was I gonna say about that?

Simon Sinek 54:06 Well, they're built tough.

Jonathan Haidt 54:07 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 54:07 You know, when your kid, like I always get a kick out, the analogy is when a little kid falls over, before they cry, they look at their parents.

Jonathan Haidt 54:14 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Simon Sinek 54:14 And if the parent goes, "Oh, my God," the kid starts crying.

Jonathan Haidt 54:18 Yeah.

Simon Sinek 54:18 And if the parent goes, "You're fine," they just get up and keep playing. And it's amazing how they learn to react to the pressure and the stress.

Jonathan Haidt 54:26 Mm-hmm. That's right. That's right. And so, right, when we became overprotective in the '80s and '90s, um, yeah, we, we weakened their development. I just wanna make, that's right, I wanna make one point about self-esteem, which is it was a big word in the '70s and '80s, but psychologists, research psychologists are pretty wary of it. Um, because while self-esteem is a real thing, um, you don't wanna build up a child's self-esteem. That's a really bad thing to do. Um, what you want to do is build up a child's capabilities, so the child then does things. And if the child achieves things, then they will have a good opinion of themself. But you can't, you can't artificially say, "You're great. I wanna build up your self-esteem." That's bad for your kids.

Simon Sinek 55:09 Right.

Jonathan Haidt 55:09 So, uh, and that is, you know, that is one of the things that's commonly said about, about the Millennials, is because in the '80s is we really, you know, as a culture, we really got into that. And a lot of progressive education still believes that, and I think it's, it's making things worse.

Simon Sinek 55:22 On that note, Jonathan, thank you so, so much. I could talk to you for hours. I'm, I, I just s- I, I, I, there are so many loose ends that we haven't, that we haven't finished, and so many rabbits hole I wanna con- rabbit holes I wanna continue to go. Is it like Surgeons General? Is it rabbits hole? You know?

Jonathan Haidt 55:37 [laughs] Rabbits hole. That's good.

Simon Sinek 55:40 There's so many more rabbit holes I wanna go down with you. Um, truly, truly, thanks for taking the time.

Jonathan Haidt 55:45 My pleasure, Simon. It was great fun. [outro music]

Simon Sinek 55:47 If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website, simonsinek.com, for classes, videos, and more. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other.