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Simon SinekWhy Awkward is Awesome with psychologist Ty Tashiro | A Bit of Optimism Podcast
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Chapter summaries
Simon's Lifelong Awkwardness and Ty's Path to Studying It
Simon describes being awkward at social events, standing alone with his drink. Ty explains that his own awkward childhood and watching awkward friends struggle at parties in new cities led him to study the topic.
- •Simon stands alone at parties and has gotten used to it
- •Ty calls himself a recovered, well-coped awkward person
- •Ty watched friends get politely brushed off after awkward small talk
- •He felt empathic pain for his friends and for the people who missed out on them
- •His idea: awkward people would be fine if they could skip the first five minutes of conversation
Awkwardness vs. Introversion and Extroversion
Ty says awkwardness correlates only weakly with introversion, and some people are both awkward and very extroverted. Simon contrasts this with Susan Cain's energy-based definition and credits Ty with defining a separate category.
- •Awkwardness shows a small correlation with introversion
- •Awkwardness sits at the ends of the bell curve, never in the middle
- •Uncontrolled extroversion can overwhelm others
- •Simon cites Susan Cain's energy-based definition with the coins analogy
Social Fluency and Mitigating Awkwardness Through Public Speaking
Ty calls non-awkward people socially fluent and compares awkwardness to speaking a second language. Simon explains how stage work and his career have eased his awkwardness because he has control over the format.
- •Socially fluent is Ty's term for non-awkward people
- •Awkwardness is like speaking in a second language
- •Awkward people can become proficient and even fool others
- •Simon says on stage and after talks, others do the talking
- •Public speaking can be prepared, and the speaker is the subject-matter expert
Practicing Social Skills: Personal Space and Eye Contact
Ty describes studying socially skilled people and practicing in private, covering personal space and eye contact. He gives the 3.1 seconds on, one second off rhythm and explains why awkward people look at the chin or ear.
- •Awkward people watch skilled people's greetings, responses, and posture
- •Ty tended to stand about 24 inches away rather than 18 to 19
- •Eye contact rhythm is about 3.1 seconds on and one second off
- •Eye-tracking research shows awkward people look at the chin or ear
- •Looking away lowers the emotional intensity of the interaction
Why Awkwardness Survived: Heritability and Obsessive Talent
Simon asks how awkward people survived evolution. Ty cites the genetic heritability of awkwardness and its link to extraordinary achievement, driven by obsessive interest in details, as with the friend who took apart a toaster.
- •Awkwardness is about 53% heritable in boys and 39% in girls
- •It correlates with extraordinary achievement or striking talent
- •The driver is obsessive interest rather than higher intelligence
- •Awkward people see the world bottom-up and combine pieces in new ways
- •This brings creativity and diversity of thinking to a group
Self-Awareness, Insecurity, and Owning Awkwardness
Simon suggests awkward people's insecurity comes from being hyper-focused on themselves and comparing themselves with fluent people. Ty agrees that awkwardness doesn't have to mean low self-esteem and that the ideal is self-awareness and owning it.
- •Awareness of the gap with fluent people can make awkwardness worse
- •Trying to overcome awkwardness can create more awkward moments
- •Awkwardness and self-esteem need not be correlated
- •Being upfront about being awkward can read as confidence
- •Teenagers may have lower self-esteem, especially if picked on
Why Awkwardness Peaks in Adolescence
Simon asks why little kids aren't awkward but adolescents are. Ty defines awkward moments as deviations from minor social expectations and says adolescence brings many new expectations that outpace a person's ability to meet them.
- •Little kids show no awkwardness or inhibitions
- •Awkward moments are deviations from relatively minor expectations
- •Adolescence brings physical change and abstract concerns such as popularity
- •Gaps between new expectations and ability make junior high feel awkward
Choosing Environments Where Social Expectations Fit You
Simon explains his strategy of avoiding high-expectation settings like bars and parties and choosing small dinners instead. Ty endorses this, criticizes the advice to just put yourself out there, and says curiosity and getting others to talk are key.
- •Simon avoids environments with heavy social expectations and leaves places where loud music prevents conversation
- •Small dinner settings allow more quiet and less pressure
- •Ty calls "just put yourself out there" unhelpful advice
- •Curiosity about the other person is the key to a great interaction
- •If the other person talks two-thirds of the time, they'll think you're great
When Awkward Meets Awkward
Simon recounts approaching a lone, struggling person at a party only to end up in mutual silence. Ty agrees that two awkward people can't easily rescue each other.
- •Simon tries to throw a lifeline to someone alone at a party
- •Poor small talk leaves both people standing in silence
- •Awkward plus awkward is really awkward
- •Both have been on the giving and receiving end
- •Ty says both people end up drowning
What Socially Fluent People Can Learn from Awkward People
Ty says awkward people are just as kind and trustworthy and often empathize with those who struggle. He adds that fluent people can learn to slow down and notice others, and to match awkward people's determination and persistence.
- •Awkward people have what matters in close relationships, including kindness and trustworthiness
- •They often notice and help people who are struggling
- •Fluent people can slow down and ask if everyone is doing well
- •Awkward people show determination and persistence through difficult parts
- •Their discipline can tip into rigidity
Ty's Favorite Work: Removing Barriers and Loving the Problem
Asked about a project he loved, Ty describes working with a psychedelic pharmaceutical company on a technology tool. He praises the CTO who asked how to remove barriers to his best work and says he loves big, nasty problems.
- •The project aimed to understand why psychedelics seem to help with depression and addiction
- •The CTO met only every two weeks and asked what barriers he could remove
- •Ty loves obsessing over the details of a big, nasty problem
- •He says finding the freedom to do this is hard in the modern age
A Childhood Memory and Closing Reflections on Generosity
Ty shares a memory of buying a rainbow parka with his aunt's $50 and his dad's emotional reaction. Simon links this to Ty's theme of self-reliance and generosity in his work, and the episode closes with thanks.
- •Ty paid for the $45 jacket himself, without his dad noticing
- •His dad cried and said fairness and generosity matter most
- •The moment fed Ty's sense of being his own person
- •Simon sees the same enabling spirit in Ty's awkwardness and relationship work
- •Ty is moved and says helping people is what it's all about
