Why Awkward is Awesome with psychologist Ty Tashiro | A Bit of Optimism Podcast

Awkwardness gets a bad rap, but the trait is often an indicator that someone is extraordinary.

Simon SinekhostGreat Minds Ty Tashiroguest

Mar 4, 202435mWatch on YouTube

Summaries, chapters, transcripts, and FAQs on this page are made by uListen, not YouTube.

Great conversations run long. Their best ideas don't have to.

uListen is free on iPhone, iPad, Android, Chrome, and Claude.

See how

Transcript

35 min read · 6,611 words

0:00 – 4:11
Simon's Lifelong Awkwardness and Ty's Path to Studying It
1. SSSimon Sinek
  Ty, um, I've never introduced a guest this way, uh, before, um, but I am so glad that you exist.
2. TTTy Tashiro
  Well, thank you. [laughs] That's a, that's a really nice, really nice way to start off.
3. SSSimon Sinek
  [laughs] I, I am this person that you study and write about. I am and have always been awkward.
4. TTTy Tashiro
  Huh.
5. SSSimon Sinek
  Um, m- m- my girlfriend would make fun of me, but lovingly, that when we would go-- She always admired that we would go to a party, for example, we were at a social event, and I had no idea how to insert myself into a conversation. You know how some people can just sidle up to a conversation and just join in-
6. TTTy Tashiro
  Sure
7. SSSimon Sinek
  ... and it's not awkward or weird or anything. And I'd never known how to do that, and so what I do is I stand in the middle of the room, or to the side, but sometimes in the middle, completely by myself, holding my drink, just watching everybody. And weirdly, I'm totally comfortable doing it, but my God, it's awkward for everybody else, and it's awkward for me, too, b- but, but I've just gotten used to it.
8. TTTy Tashiro
  I, I know exactly [laughs] I know exactly what you're talking about, Simon, so you're, you're in good company today.
9. SSSimon Sinek
  H- H- How-- What was your-- What's your journey? How did you start studying awkwardness?
10. TTTy Tashiro
  Well, I, I guess real-life experience [laughs] if we g- if we go all the way back. So, uh, I was a super awkward kid. Um, and, uh, I mean, I'm still awkward now, kind of recovered awkward, uh, or well-coped awkward, I guess. But-
11. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah
12. TTTy Tashiro
  ... yeah. Gosh, if you knew me when I was a kid, especially... And junior high is awkward for everybody, of course. For me, it was particularly, uh, difficult and, and bewildering, probably like you said, a little bit awkward for other people as well. So yeah, that's kind of where it all began, was just, was just with life. And then I had some friends who had moved to new cities. It just so happened a- at this point in time, this was like 2014, I think, a lot of my friends who had moved just happened to be socially awkward [laughs] as well. And one of the things I like to do is go visit people when they're new to a city. It's always a hard thing to do. And, uh, I'd go visit these friends, and I'd watch them at parties or at bars or whatever else, uh, standing there holding their drink [laughs] sometimes on the side or in the middle, and they would start talking to somebody new, and it would just be heartbreaking. Um, because they'd be awkward, and the other person would excuse themselves politely, "I gotta go get a drink," or, "I gotta go do something" they really didn't have to do. And I gotta say, it just really broke my heart.
13. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
14. TTTy Tashiro
  'Cause I thought, "You know, I'm, I'm sad for my friend who..." You know, these were all really great people who were super interesting, tremendous character, and I thought it's, it's really tough to watch them struggle socially. But then I thought, "It's too bad for the other person, too."
15. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
16. TTTy Tashiro
  'Cause they made a two or three-minute decision on whether they wanted to be interested in this person or not, and now they're missing out on-
17. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah
18. TTTy Tashiro
  ... one of the most interesting people they could possibly become friends with. So that was where it all started, was just this, this kinda pain for, um, this empathic pain for my friends.
19. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
20. TTTy Tashiro
  Uh, but then also thinking, "Gosh, wh- why aren't other people more understanding of where the awkward person is coming from?" And it, it kinda led to this, this question for me. It solidified in this way. I thought, "You know, maybe if socially awkward people could skip the first five minutes of conversation-
21. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah
22. TTTy Tashiro
  ... they'd actually be all right."
23. SSSimon Sinek
  Yes.
24. TTTy Tashiro
  Uh, because it's the small talk and the minutiae that they-
25. SSSimon Sinek
  Yes
26. TTTy Tashiro
  ... really struggle with.
27. SSSimon Sinek
  I, I, the, y- y- it-- Yes, yes, yes. I struggle with small talk. I sm- struggle with minutiae. I, it's a, it's a, you know, my w- dating, for, for years, dating was awful because I didn't know how to, like, the, the awkwardness at the beginning, and then-
28. TTTy Tashiro
  Oh, yeah
29. SSSimon Sinek
  ... I find myself overcompensating, you know?
4:11 – 6:01
Awkwardness vs. Introversion and Extroversion
1. SSSimon Sinek
  What, what's the correlation between extroversion, introversion, and awkwardness, or is there none? You're just either, you know, awkward and shy or awkward and outgoing.
2. TTTy Tashiro
  Mm.
3. SSSimon Sinek
  Like, is it just, you know-
4. TTTy Tashiro
  Yeah
5. SSSimon Sinek
  ... any part-
6. TTTy Tashiro
  Well, that turns out to be, you know, very interesting, Simon, because there is a small correlation between, um, awkwardness and introversion, which I kinda think would fit most people's stereotype or, or assumption. Uh, but it's, it's not as strong as you would think it would be, and in fact-
7. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah
8. TTTy Tashiro
  ... you do have, on the opposite end, people who are really awkward and super extroverted.
9. SSSimon Sinek
  Oh.
10. TTTy Tashiro
  So one of the ways I like to think about awkwardness is it's just never in the middle of the bell curve. You're, uh, in this case, you know, pretty shy and, and really introverted, or it could be that you're really extroverted, but maybe that kinda uncontrolled extroversion where you're, you're a little too much and overwhelming for other, other folks-
11. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah
12. TTTy Tashiro
  ... if you don't moderate it.
13. SSSimon Sinek
  This is, I think this is interesting. I've always liked Susan Cain's definition of introversion and extroversion, which is about energy. You know? Like, uh, introverts lose energy being social, and extroverts gain energy being social. Uh, you know, put another way, an i- an introvert wakes up in the morning with five coins, and every social interaction they have, they spend a coin, and by the end, they're depleted. And an extrovert wakes up with no coins. Every social interaction they have, they get a coin. By the end, they feel rich.
14. TTTy Tashiro
  Yes.
15. SSSimon Sinek
  Uh-
16. TTTy Tashiro
  Yes, exactly.
17. SSSimon Sinek
  Uh, and, and, and to your point, it's not about social awkwardness. There are socially awkward introverts and socially un-awkward introverts, and there are-
18. TTTy Tashiro
  Yeah
19. SSSimon Sinek
  ... socially awkward extroverts and socially un-awkward extroverts. So-
20. TTTy Tashiro
  Yes
21. SSSimon Sinek
  ... what I, I, what I appreciate is that you're defining this new category that's not about energy or, or social or, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, introversion, extroversion, but this new thing called awkwardness. So-
6:01 – 9:19
Social Fluency and Mitigating Awkwardness Through Public Speaking
1. SSSimon Sinek
  The people who aren't awkward [laughs]
2. TTTy Tashiro
  [laughs] Yeah.
3. SSSimon Sinek
  What, what, what should we be studying in them? Like, is there a sk-
4. TTTy Tashiro
  Hmm
5. SSSimon Sinek
  ... this innate or c- is there a skill that they have that even may, even though it may not be innate for me, that I can actually practice it and, and get better?
6. TTTy Tashiro
  Yes. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So these non-awkward folks, I like to call them socially fluent [laughs]
7. SSSimon Sinek
  Oh, sure
8. TTTy Tashiro
  ... because sometimes I think about awkwardness, you know, if someone's not awkward, it's kinda hard to explain what's going on in your mind, [laughs] you know?
9. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
10. TTTy Tashiro
  And I say it's, it's kinda like trying to speak in your second language. Um, it's just harder to decipher what's going on. Uh, there's that clumsiness, and then also when it comes to conveying to other people, uh, what you're trying to get across, you just kinda have to th- think about the details more, and it's just more arduous, and sometimes it doesn't come out quite right.
11. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
12. TTTy Tashiro
  [laughs] Right? So I think about, uh, folks who are not awkward as, as socially fluent. And yes, uh, awkward folks can learn a tr- a tremendous amount. And, you know, one of the secrets, I think-
13. SSSimon Sinek
  So I may not, I may not get fluent, but I can be somewhat conversational. [laughs]
14. TTTy Tashiro
  That's right. [laughs] That, that's right. And you could even fool people, right? So you're, you're proficient, let's say, but, uh, you catch people in the right situation on the right day, and they're like, "Hey, you're, you're doing great." Uh-
15. SSSimon Sinek
  So-
16. TTTy Tashiro
  For example, I mean, I'm sure you get this all the time if you tell people that you're, that you're awkward. Uh, people might have seen your public-facing side, and that's all they know about you.
17. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
18. TTTy Tashiro
  And then there's almost this disbelief, like, "Simon, you're not, you're not awkward." You're like, "No, I, I actually really am at, at my core." But when it comes to, say, something like public speaking, you learned the skills and you honed them to such a degree that it would actually be hard for people to know that you're, that you're awkward.
19. SSSimon Sinek
  And I have to say, you know, when people say, "Oh, Simon, how can you be socially awkward? You stand on the stage," blah, blah, blah. But what they forget is that when I get off the sta- first of all, when I'm on the stage, I'm not talking to anybody, you know, I'm not interacting, you know?
20. TTTy Tashiro
  Right.
21. SSSimon Sinek
  Uh, but when I, when I come off the stage, people do all the talking at me. "Oh, I love what you said. That was great." And they're, I just stand there saying, "Thank you," or as- answering questions, but, but I'm actually not having to come up with anything. [laughs]
22. TTTy Tashiro
  [laughs]
23. SSSimon Sinek
  You know?
24. TTTy Tashiro
  That's right.
25. SSSimon Sinek
  So the, it, it, it actually is actually quite, it makes my life actually a lot easier, weirdly, you know?
26. TTTy Tashiro
  Yeah.
27. SSSimon Sinek
  As my career has progressed-
28. TTTy Tashiro
  Yeah, I totally get that
29. SSSimon Sinek
  ... my social awkwardness has been mitigated. Um-
30. TTTy Tashiro
  Absolutely. You know, and you have, you have quite a bit of control in that scenario, right? The public speaking, you can actually prepare, uh, for that and have some control over that. Uh, when it comes to people asking you questions, you'll get new ones that you haven't heard before, but you know your material, and so you're the kind of the subject matter expert.
9:19 – 12:49
Practicing Social Skills: Personal Space and Eye Contact
1. SSSimon Sinek
  What, what were some of the things that you practiced that you, th- th- so you could gain those skills? What are some of the specific things that you practiced?
2. TTTy Tashiro
  Yeah. Um, so a lot of things. O- one thing was personal space. My default, Simon, is to stand too far away from people.
3. SSSimon Sinek
  Uh-huh.
4. TTTy Tashiro
  So United States, it's about 18, 19 inches of personal space is, is just about right. I'd stand about 24 inches away, which makes you feel oddly distant [laughs] and it's kind of uncomfortable.
5. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
6. TTTy Tashiro
  And so yeah, I, I would watch even how close people stood to other folks.
7. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
8. TTTy Tashiro
  Um, I would watch... I have a hard time with eye contact-
9. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah
10. TTTy Tashiro
  ... um, by nature, and I would watch how long do they make eye contact. When they look away, uh, so they're not, you know, bearing into somebody's soul all the time-
11. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah
12. TTTy Tashiro
  ... where do they look to? How long do they look away? And I would kinda get that rhythm from, from social learning and then practice it. And, you know, it's a little awkward as you're acquiring new skills, but-
13. SSSimon Sinek
  Right
14. TTTy Tashiro
  ... I guess it worked to a certain extent.
15. SSSimon Sinek
  I mean, it's kinda like riding a bicycle, right? There's hyper-awareness to start. You're like, "Keep pedaling, keep pedaling, keep pedaling." And then at some point it become, y- you just, it becomes more natural. So, you know-
16. TTTy Tashiro
  Yeah
17. SSSimon Sinek
  ... when, as you're practicing these skills, there's hyper-awareness, which in itself is awkward for you, like counting, counting how many [laughs] seconds you're staring at someone's eyes.
18. TTTy Tashiro
  [laughs] Yeah.
19. SSSimon Sinek
  But, but to your point, so how long is, is the, what's the range of appropriateness? 'Cause I catch myself sometimes, like, having a conversation with somebody and I realize I'm looking everywhere except at them.
20. TTTy Tashiro
  Yes. Yeah. Uh, so it's, it's 3.1 seconds for the record. [laughs] 3.1 on, about a second off. You can look wherever you want, it turns out. Uh, but yeah.
21. SSSimon Sinek
  So it's 3 point-
22. TTTy Tashiro
  That's, that's about the right amount
23. SSSimon Sinek
  ... 3.1 on, one off. 3.1 on, one off.
24. TTTy Tashiro
  [laughs] That's right. I had to tell... Aw- awkward people tend to love details, so I say don't fuss about the 0.1.
25. SSSimon Sinek
  Right.
26. TTTy Tashiro
  But, uh, yeah, about, about three to one, uh, r- ratio. And it's interesting what you say about finding yourself looking anywhere but the person's eyes. There's actually some research on this where they can track, do eye tracking studies, and actually watch where people are looking when they're looking into somebody's, uh, looking at somebody's face. And one of the th- one of the things they find with socially awkward people is that compared to socially fluent people who reflexively look at the eye region-
27. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm-hmm
28. TTTy Tashiro
  ... uh, because the eyes contain actually the most social information-
29. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm-hmm
30. TTTy Tashiro
  ... awkward people reflexively look to the chin or to the ear, which have much less, uh, social [laughs] information. But what it seems to do is it makes the social interaction less overwhelming, less emotionally overwhelming.
12:49 – 17:12
Why Awkwardness Survived: Heritability and Obsessive Talent
1. SSSimon Sinek
  here's a, here's an interesting question, which is why are people awkward? You know, because the, the theory being that, you know, it, you know, I mean, I'm gonna m- m- completely make stuff up here, but, you know, in, in the realm of evolution, you know, you, you want the, the stronger person, the, the smarter person to be the one who's procreating, and the social person, the, the, the socially fluent person is more likely to be, sort of have an alpha status and, and, and sort of g- get the better mate. And, and so the two socially fluent people will procreate and, like, make... It's gotta be good for evolution to be soc- for social animals-
2. TTTy Tashiro
  Sure
3. SSSimon Sinek
  ... being socially fluent has got to be helpful. So, you know, how, how, how did awkward people survive evolution? [laughs]
4. TTTy Tashiro
  [laughs]
5. SSSimon Sinek
  Like, why, why are we, why are we awkward? Why is there awkwardness?
6. TTTy Tashiro
  It's, yeah, it's kind of a miracle we're still here.
7. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
8. TTTy Tashiro
  [laughs] Yeah. Uh, it, I think that's a really interesting lens through which to look at the awkwardness and where it comes from, right? And along with your, um, with your hypothesis, I think it's really interesting that awkwardness shows pretty strong heritability. So in boys, for example, it's about 53% heritable. In girls, about 39% heritable. So there is a significant genetic component there, which suggests it's being passed down, right?
9. SSSimon Sinek
  Right. Right.
10. TTTy Tashiro
  Uh, through, through generations. Um, one of the... It's, it's not really clear, uh, yet. It's, it's not a slam dunk why awkward people would've, uh, not been selected out at some point. But one thought is this, is that there's this curious and strong correlation between social awkwardness and what researchers call extraordinary achievement or striking talent. Uh, so you know, people who achieve amazing things in this world, things that are kinda at the tail end of the bell curve, uh, they're actually more likely to be awkward. And the reason for that, y- you might say, well, maybe awkward people are more intelligent. That actually doesn't seem to be what accounts for this extraordinary achievement.
11. SSSimon Sinek
  Uh-huh.
12. TTTy Tashiro
  Uh, instead what it is, is this obsessive interest in things. And so awkward people have this tendency... I, I say awkward people really love what they love, [laughs] right? Uh, to the point that they get obsessed with it. They become obsessed with the details and the minutia-
13. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah
14. TTTy Tashiro
  ... and then trying to put those pieces together in different ways.
15. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
16. TTTy Tashiro
  Uh, as an example, I, I heard a, a great anecdote from a, a friend of mine, uh, from his wife. And sh- she said, "Hey, uh, hey, uh, I have a little anecdote for you. Your buddy, uh, who's awkward, uh, one day I walked in, and he had taken apart the toaster, and it was just laying there in pieces on the counter. And I said, 'What, what are you doing? Is it broken?' And he just said, 'No, I was just really interested in how, in how the pieces worked a- and, and how this thing operates as a whole.'" And that's kinda like the awkward person. When they really love something, they'll just really get into it and obsess about it. But that, that obsessiveness then translates into persisting through, um, kinda hard times a- and challenges, and then also eventually getting to a point where they can achieve something that's really, uh, really pretty exceptional.
17. SSSimon Sinek
  That's so interesting. So, so I mean, so the, the thought here then is, you know, y- when, when I ask why evolutionarily would a, would an awkward person, you know, even, even make it, uh, it's because there are huge advantages. It's not, it's not a, it's not a, it's not just social, that there are huge advantages that we need the awkward people in our society because of their obsession and, and they're, uh, I assume that they're also, they're the observers.
18. TTTy Tashiro
  So yeah, the awkward person can be super valuable, uh, because they are seeing the world in a different kind of way, and they are seeing it in this more bottom-up kind of way.
19. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
20. TTTy Tashiro
  And what happens then is you might put those pieces together in a way-
21. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah
22. TTTy Tashiro
  ... that nobody else would.
23. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
24. TTTy Tashiro
  And that can lead to creativity or, or innovation. And that gives, uh, diversity to a group's thinking, but can also then, of course, right, if we're talking about evolution, add resources because they'll see new ways or better ways to, to do things.
25. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah. This is so interesting.
17:12 – 19:04
Self-Awareness, Insecurity, and Owning Awkwardness
1. SSSimon Sinek
  And, and, uh, and, and, and it also explains the, the self-flagellation and the insecurity that sometimes come from being awkward is because we are equally hyper-focused on ourselves, and because we actually have a means of comparison, right? Like, I've been watching other people and I know how they conduct themselves, and I'm not conducting myself that way. I've observed the socially fluent, and I'm being socially unfluent. Um, uh, and I'm aware of that, and that, I think, is the source of the, uh, unfortunately a self [laughs] even more awkwardness.
2. TTTy Tashiro
  [laughs] Yeah. That, that's right. Trying to overcome th- the previously awkward thing sometimes leads to even a more awkward situation. [laughs]
3. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah. I, I, I think the other thing is w- and we, I think it's worth parsing out, which is [clears throat] there's no correlation, or I'm assuming there's no correlation between socially awkward and insecure.
4. TTTy Tashiro
  Yes. Y- you're exactly right. So th- there doesn't have to be. ... a correlation between, um, your self-esteem and, and you being socially awkward. And if, yeah, if you just having some self-awareness about it and you're just kind of str- people kind of appreciate the straightforwardness.
5. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
6. TTTy Tashiro
  It's like, oh, well, that actually took a little extra confidence to [chuckles] come in hot with, "Hey, I'm an awkward person." And I think people kinda-
7. SSSimon Sinek
  Not too hot
8. TTTy Tashiro
  ... I think people kind of appreciate that. [both laughing] Yeah. So, uh, but you know, there are folks who it, it takes a while sometimes.
9. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
10. TTTy Tashiro
  And so, like with teenagers, for example, um, they might have a bit of a lower self-esteem, and it's kinda understandable 'cause they are struggling more and this, in some instances, like the awkward kids getting picked on or something, which, which-
11. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah
12. TTTy Tashiro
  ... doesn't help. But yeah, the ideal, Simon, would be to get to where you're at, to where, yeah, you just have good self-awareness and you own it.
19:04 – 20:55
Why Awkwardness Peaks in Adolescence
1. SSSimon Sinek
  Oh, that's a great, that's a great question, which is, which is all little kids have no awkwardness. Like-
2. TTTy Tashiro
  [laughs]
3. SSSimon Sinek
  ... little kids have n- no inhibitions, no awkwardness. They see the world through r- the rosiest color lenses, you know? And then adolescence sets in, and all the awkwardness shows up.
4. TTTy Tashiro
  Mm-hmm.
5. SSSimon Sinek
  We look awkward, we sound awkward, we act awkward, you know? And then for some of us, the awkwardness remains h- at higher levels, and for some of us, it, it dilutes and dissipates. The question I have is, is why do we get awkward in adolescence at all? Like, if we weren't awkward as little kids, why the transition into awkwardness where there's more awkwardness amongst adolescent kids than, than, than not?
6. TTTy Tashiro
  There's a couple things there, you know. So awkward moments are just deviations from relatively minor social expectations.
7. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm-hmm.
8. TTTy Tashiro
  Um, because if it's, if it's a m- violation of a major expectation like trust, for example, then you're in a different realm of emotional reaction to that.
9. SSSimon Sinek
  Right.
10. TTTy Tashiro
  Um, an unzipped zipper or spinach-
11. SSSimon Sinek
  Not-
12. TTTy Tashiro
  ... in your front teeth, not a big deal really, right?
13. SSSimon Sinek
  Right.
14. TTTy Tashiro
  But, uh, but those are certainly awkward kinds of moments. What happens when you get to adolescence is things obviously, obviously start to change very quickly. Uh, so that could be physical kind of stuff, but also mentally you get this surge of abstract reasoning, and you're interested in popularity and abstract things like that.
15. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm-hmm.
16. TTTy Tashiro
  And so there's all these new expectations. Uh, all of a sudden I gotta be fashionable.
17. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm-hmm.
18. TTTy Tashiro
  Um, all of a sudden I'm much shorter than everybody else who's going through their growth spurt.
19. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm-hmm.
20. TTTy Tashiro
  Uh, there's all these things where there, there's a gap between expectations and your ability to meet those social expectations.
21. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm-hmm.
22. TTTy Tashiro
  And I think that's why in junior high school, for example, it just feels awkward for a lot of folks.
20:55 – 25:17
Choosing Environments Where Social Expectations Fit You
1. SSSimon Sinek
  I'm loving this. So what I love about this, which is it's, uh, awkwardness you're defining, and I love this definition, which is it's, it's, it's not quite meeting a social expectation.
2. TTTy Tashiro
  Mm-hmm.
3. SSSimon Sinek
  Right? And so I'll tell you a strategy that I've learned that has been extremely beneficial to me, right? Um, because to your point, in a social interaction in a bar, at a party, at all these things, there's a s- there's a, there's an expectation of s- s- sociability and some degree of social fluency that an awkward person really struggles with. The small talk, the, all of that stuff, w- which I do. And so one strategy is to really, really, really, really work hard on your social fluency so you can be good in those e- environments. The strategy that I've adopted is to avoid those environments. [both laughing] Which is-
4. TTTy Tashiro
  Yeah
5. SSSimon Sinek
  ... which is I go into s- uh, you, you know, but your point about meeting social expectations, which is I go into environments where the social expectations are different, right?
6. TTTy Tashiro
  Hmm.
7. SSSimon Sinek
  So, so, uh, an environment where there's a small group of people, a dinner table with two or three people has a different social expectation than, than a, than a party or a bar or a, a social event, you know?
8. TTTy Tashiro
  Yeah.
9. SSSimon Sinek
  And you can sit quietly at a table for quite much longer without being viewed as awkward, or you can interact now and then as an, or, or, or allow somebody else to carry the conversation without being awkward. So I, what I really like is understanding what the expectations are. I think we should all work harder to be better versions of ourselves and be prepared for all scenarios, of course, but there's something to be said for not beating yourself up when you're bad in a place where the expectations are one. You can change where the expectations are and put yourself in a place where you're just gonna be naturally better.
10. TTTy Tashiro
  Yes. Yeah. Oh.
11. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
12. TTTy Tashiro
  Love that. [chuckles] Love that point. L- love that strategy because, um, some of the unhelpful advice I hear folks give to awkward people is-
13. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah
14. TTTy Tashiro
  ... "Well, just put yourself out there. You know, just go to the party, just go to the club." Go, go to the nightmare scenario where you're not gonna do well, basically.
15. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
16. TTTy Tashiro
  And what you're saying is, "Hey, I'm gonna try to set myself up for success-
17. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah
18. TTTy Tashiro
  ... by putting myself in social environments where, where I can thrive, and it's better suited to my preferences and, and my skills." So yeah, I absolutely, absolutely love that. I mean, one of the things I've just observed in our so- short interaction here is, like, you're a naturally curious person, and in a smaller group setting with one or two people, and that would be the kind of trait that would really thrive because you'd be, "Yeah. Hey, tell me more, uh, about this thing that you're thinking about or that you're interested in," which is really the key to a great social interaction, period.
19. SSSimon Sinek
  Right. Right.
20. TTTy Tashiro
  And so yeah, by, by you putting yourself in the ideal environment, that's really one of the best things you can do.
21. SSSimon Sinek
  I, I'm gaming, I'm gaming the system.
22. TTTy Tashiro
  Yes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. E- e- exactly. And you've been, you've, you've also given yourself permission to let go of, you know, kind of forcing yourself to be in situations that you don't enjoy or that, that aren't good for you. Mm-hmm.
23. SSSimon Sinek
  And, you know, if there's loud music and I can't actually have a conversation, I, I, I literally shut down. I can't do it.
24. TTTy Tashiro
  Yeah, yeah.
25. SSSimon Sinek
  I'll walk into a place, and if the music is too loud for me to engage with somebody, I will leave
26. TTTy Tashiro
  Yeah
27. SSSimon Sinek
  You know?
28. TTTy Tashiro
  Yeah, 'cause it's, it's not gonna go well and you just know it.
29. SSSimon Sinek
  There's just nothing, there's just nothing I can do in this space.
30. TTTy Tashiro
  Yeah.
25:17 – 26:23
When Awkward Meets Awkward
1. SSSimon Sinek
  That's happened to me where I've seen in a social environment where there's lots of people, you know, party, club, whatever, and there's one guy standing on the side, like I know he's struggling. I know he feels alone. I, I know he doesn't know what he's doing. And so I'd be like, "All right, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try and sort of like throw this poor, poor guy a lifeline. I've been there." And I'll walk up and be-- And I-- and again, 'cause I'm complete crap at small talk, I'll walk up and be like, "How, how you doing?" You know?
2. TTTy Tashiro
  Yeah. [chuckles]
3. SSSimon Sinek
  "You okay?"
4. TTTy Tashiro
  Yeah.
5. SSSimon Sinek
  And he'll go, "Yeah, I'm good."
6. TTTy Tashiro
  Yeah.
7. SSSimon Sinek
  And then the two of us stand there in complete silence.
8. TTTy Tashiro
  [laughs] Yeah.
9. SSSimon Sinek
  And awkward-
10. TTTy Tashiro
  Just looking out at the dance floor. [laughs]
11. SSSimon Sinek
  You know, awkward plus awkward is really awkward.
12. TTTy Tashiro
  Yeah. [laughs]
13. SSSimon Sinek
  And we're both feeling it until one of us goes, "Okay," and just walks away. [both laughing] You know?
14. TTTy Tashiro
  Oh. Hell yeah, I know.
15. SSSimon Sinek
  And I've sometimes been on the re- on the receiving end of that, and I've sometimes been on the giving end of that. But an awkward person will struggle to rescue an aw- [chuckles] an awkward person.
16. TTTy Tashiro
  Yeah. Now you're both drowning.
17. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
18. TTTy Tashiro
  Yeah.
19. SSSimon Sinek
  It's not a good, it's not a good scenario. [both laughing]
26:23 – 28:43
What Socially Fluent People Can Learn from Awkward People
1. SSSimon Sinek
  All right. So, so now we've, we've, we've talked about what, what we awkwards can learn from socially fluent people and how we can, uh, better improve for, for all the good reasons, you know. It's helpful to be socially fluent in a, in a social world. Um, uh, w- what about what can socially fluent people learn from awkward people?
2. TTTy Tashiro
  One of the things I think for folks to know in general is that socially awkward people are just as kind, they are just as trustworthy. They are-- They have all, you know, all the stuff that actually really matters in a close relationship, uh, awkward people have. And I, I think one of the things that's bonus is that awkward people a lot of times have an empathy for what it's like to be misunderstood, or they have an empathy for what it's like to, to struggle in an interpersonal situation. And one of the things I, I just really warms my heart, I guess, is to see the awkward person, you know, notice somebody who's struggling, whereas the socially fluent person might not because they're, you know, not paying attention to some of the details. Um, one of the things I love is, you know, the awkward person taking the time, uh, to really help folks along who, who might be struggling. And so I think one of the things socially fluent people can learn from awkward folks is to slow down sometimes and think about, "Hey, is everyone doing well here, and what can I do to be helpful?" I think one of the other things that awkward people do well that socially fluent people oftentimes can learn something from is just their determination and their persistence. And, you know, I, I love to-- When I'm talking to an awkward person and I find that thing that they're passionate about and that they're obsessed about-
3. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah
4. TTTy Tashiro
  ... I, I just love hearing about their passion for it, but I also love hearing how they work on it.
5. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
6. TTTy Tashiro
  And there's this discipline, um, that can sometimes tip into rigidity, but, uh, there's this discipline and there's, there's this persistence, uh, especially through difficult parts-
7. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm-hmm
8. TTTy Tashiro
  ... that I think is really admirable.
9. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah. Yeah. So interesting. Uh, w-
28:43 – 30:47
Ty's Favorite Work: Removing Barriers and Loving the Problem
1. SSSimon Sinek
  can you tell me a specific story about something you were involved in over the course of your professional career? You know, a project you were involved in, something like that. It doesn't matter if it was commercially successful or however you wanna define that. Um, but something that you absolutely loved being a part of, that if you could, if every one of your projects or w- any, every one of your research, you know, projects was like this one thing, you'd be the happiest person alive.
2. TTTy Tashiro
  Hmm. That's a, that's a great question. I, I guess I haven't, I guess I haven't really thought about that much. I, I think, uh... You know, I had a recent experience, I guess. I was, uh, I was working with a psychedelic pharmaceutical company, [chuckles] and, uh, they were, um, they wanted to build this technology tool to understand why psy- psychedelics seem to work for things like depression or addiction and, and other things. And one of the things I loved about that, that environment is, uh, the guy I worked with most closely was the chief technology officer, and he was one of my favorite people I've ever worked with, and he would al- he only wanted to meet every two weeks, which I liked. [chuckles] And he'd always start with the same question, which just exemplifies what I think I enjoyed about the situation. He would always say, "Hey, Ty, what can I do to remove the barriers to let you do your best possible work?" And that was really all he was interested in, in doing.
3. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm-hmm.
4. TTTy Tashiro
  And I think the times I've really loved whatever it is I'm doing, whether it's something about social awkwardness or a technology tool or whatever it might be, is I just love the problem You know, I, I, I just love a big, nasty problem, and I, I love obsessing [laughs] then about figuring out the details of that and, you know, trying to come up with something, uh, that's maybe creative or, or different. And I think finding the freedom to do that in this modern age is, is pretty hard to do.
5. SSSimon Sinek
  Yeah.
30:47 – 35:17
A Childhood Memory and Closing Reflections on Generosity
1. SSSimon Sinek
  What's... Give me an early specific happy childhood memory. Not like, "We went to my grandparents every weekend." That's something, something specific I can relive with you.
2. TTTy Tashiro
  Yeah. Oh, I, I, I was pretty lucky. You know, I had a pretty happy, a pr- pretty happy childhood. Um, I, I think... I guess the thing that comes to mind right now that, that was actually kind of a big deal was, I was in California with, with my dad. We were just kinda taking a boys trip, uh, the, the two of us.
3. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm-hmm.
4. TTTy Tashiro
  And my aunt had very generously given me $50.00.
5. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm-hmm.
6. TTTy Tashiro
  Um, which was really nice of her. She said, "Hey, just, just spend this on, on whatever you want sometime," and I said, "Okay." So, uh, my dad loved clothes, [laughs] so we, we went out and did a lot of clothes shopping. And there was this 19- this '80s style rainbow jacket that I loved. It had the stripe down the middle.
7. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm-hmm.
8. TTTy Tashiro
  It was kinda this parka. And, um, it was, like, $45. And, um, my dad expected to pay for it. It was, like, s- school clothes shopping or whatever. And, uh, I was... I actually took it when he wasn't looking. Uh, he was looking at something else, and I went and I paid for it with my, with the money my aunt had given me.
9. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm-hmm.
10. TTTy Tashiro
  And when my dad kinda saw what I had done, he just started crying. He, like, broke down in tears.
11. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm-hmm.
12. TTTy Tashiro
  [laughs] I was like, "Oh, did I..." Thought I did something awkward, like I had upset him or something like that. And, uh, he just said, "I'm, I'm so proud of you for, you know, just wanting to, uh, be fair and, and do your part. And that's the most important thing in life, Ty, is just that it's not about the money. It's just that y- you know, you're, you're thoughtful about, um, being fair with people and, and being generous with people as much as you're able."
13. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm-hmm.
14. TTTy Tashiro
  Uh, and, and my dad was kind of a man of few words, so I remember that really meant, it really meant a lot to me.
15. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm-hmm.
16. TTTy Tashiro
  Uh, and it was also kinda, you know, at the time, I think I was in fifth grade, starting to feel like, "Hey, maybe I can do, be my own person and do some things on my own."
17. SSSimon Sinek
  Mm-hmm. You know what's interesting about that story, but also all of your work, which is, um, you really care about self-reliance and giving people the tools to be self-reliant. And in, in, in, as you- as a kid, it was the $50.00 that gave you self-reliance to make a decision to get something you wanted.
18. TTTy Tashiro
  Right.
19. SSSimon Sinek
  And your awkwardness work, you know, which is to give people the tools that they don't have to lean on someone or rely on someone, but that, that, that they know enough and they understand the strengths of being awkward, that they can, that they can actually thrive in life without having to be something that they're not.
20. TTTy Tashiro
  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
21. SSSimon Sinek
  You know?
22. TTTy Tashiro
  Yeah.
23. SSSimon Sinek
  And I just love that you have this... And you said, it's, it's, it's a very generous way of going through life. And it, a- a- and it, and it, and it's like i- in, in all of your work, you have kind of become that CTO at the psychedelics company, you know, which is, what can I give to you so that you can be your most successful?
24. TTTy Tashiro
  Yeah.
25. SSSimon Sinek
  And that's exactly what your-
26. TTTy Tashiro
  Yeah
27. SSSimon Sinek
  ... and that's exactly what your relationship work is. That is exactly what your awkwardness work is. What can I give to you so that you can be your most successful? You know?
28. TTTy Tashiro
  No, I-
29. SSSimon Sinek
  I wanna... And I love that. I love that about you.
30. TTTy Tashiro
  I really appreciate that. That's, uh, one of the nicest things I've heard in quite some time. So, uh, I'll t- I'll try not to get emotional [laughs] uh, here, but that's, that's really nice to, that's, that's really nice to hear. And yeah, if I can do that for folks, I'd... Gosh, that would, um... I, I, I think for me at least, you know, that's, that's what it's all about.