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Tim FerrissBrene Brown Interview (Full Episode) | The Tim Ferriss Show (Podcast)
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CHAPTERS
- 0:00 – 8:20
Intro and Brené's Two Answers to "What Do You Do?"
Tim introduces Dr. Brené Brown and her work on vulnerability, courage, worthiness and shame, along with her new book Rising Strong. Brené explains the two ways she answers what she does, and the conversation jokes about using shame research as a character check.
- •Tim introduces Brené's research, her viral TEDx talk and her books
- •Brené says she tells people she is a shame researcher when she doesn't want to keep talking
- •With a normal conversation she says she studies vulnerability, courage, shame and worthiness
- •Tim jokes about a reverse George Costanza approach to conversation
- •Brené calls people's reaction to her work a total character check
- 8:20 – 13:31
How the TEDx Talk Came to Be
Tim asks about the genesis of The Power of Vulnerability. Brené describes the accidental experiment of being vulnerable on stage, her vulnerability hangover, how the talk ended up online, and her takeaway about feeling a little nauseous afterward.
- •TEDx Houston's curator told her only to be awesome and have fun
- •She decided to be vulnerable while talking about vulnerability, against her husband's doubts
- •She expected to never do it again and was relieved only 500 people were there
- •The talk went viral after being put up on TED's site
- •Her takeaway is that if she isn't a little nauseous afterward, she probably didn't show up fully
- 13:31 – 15:19
Presenting Without Rehearsing: Connection Over Performance
Brené explains she doesn't rehearse in the traditional way and instead uses images as the arc of a talk. She insists on house lights up so she can see faces and rarely allows recording.
- •Rehearsing what, when and how to say it pulls her into her prefrontal cortex
- •She builds talks around images and what each one means to her
- •She requires house lights on to see people's faces
- •She rarely allows videotaping because it turns connection into performance
- 15:19 – 20:28
Defining Vulnerability and Courage
Brené defines vulnerability as uncertainty, risk and emotional exposure, and argues it underpins all acts of courage. She also gives the root meaning of courage, and Tim stresses the importance of defining terms.
- •She was raised to believe vulnerability is weakness, but her data showed it is the best measure of courage
- •Participants described vulnerability with examples like a first date after divorce or starting a business
- •Vulnerability is showing up and being seen with no control over the outcome
- •Courage comes from the Latin for heart and means choosing what's right over what's easy
- •Tim connects this to Cus D'Amato's idea that the hero and coward feel the same thing
- 20:28 – 28:29
Understanding Shame, Empathy, and Guilt
Prompted by a quote that shame hates words wrapped around it, Brené describes shame as the belief we are unworthy of connection. She explains it thrives on secrecy, silence and judgment and cannot survive empathy, then distinguishes it from guilt. Tim's question about shame's evolutionary purpose leads her to argue shame is dangerous and highly correlated with addiction, depression, violence and suicide.
- •Shame is the fear we're not worthy of connection, and only people incapable of empathy don't feel it
- •Shame grows with secrecy, silence and judgment and can't survive empathy
- •Shame's two tapes are "you're not enough" and "who do you think you are"
- •Shame may have served a function evolutionarily but is now dangerous and linked to addiction, depression and violence
- •Shame is "I am bad" while guilt is "I did something bad," and guilt is healthy and adaptive
- 28:29 – 31:47
Shaming Children and Training Based on Positive Reinforcement
Tim relates Josh Waitzkin's parenting style of praising effort to the shame-versus-guilt distinction. Brené says calling a child a liar becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and that shaming doesn't keep people safer. Tim adds a parallel from training his rescue dog with positive reinforcement.
- •Tim describes Josh Waitzkin rewarding effort rather than labeling his son smart
- •Brené says telling a child they're a liar leaves no option for growth
- •She argues most horrific crimes come from deeply shame-based people
- •If shaming kept people safer she'd be for it, but it doesn't
- •Tim notes punishment-based training works worse than positive reinforcement
- 31:47 – 39:32
"I Am Enough" vs. Competitive Drive
Tim asks how a mindset of being enough fits with the discontent that drives high achievers. Brené says she is competitive too and that belief in being enough is the center of her healthy ambition, distinguishing striving from proving oneself to others.
- •Tim worries contentment might remove the competitive edge
- •Brené says she is a type A, ambitious person and her healthy competitiveness stems from believing she is enough
- •When she doesn't feel enough she acts to prove herself to others instead of growing
- •Being enough is not based on what she achieves or produces
- •She says you could tell which of ten Silicon Valley people strive from enoughness and which are trying to fill a hole in self-worth
- 39:32 – 46:09
Daring Greatly, Reading the Comments, and Perfectionism
Tim asks how someone knows they've dared greatly. Brené recalls reading hurtful online comments after her talk went viral, then finding the Roosevelt quote. She says the daily question is whether she chose courage over comfort, and contrasts perfectionism with healthy striving.
- •Brené read all the online comments after the talk went viral and found the Roosevelt quote soon after
- •Staying small is served up with resentment
- •The daily question is whether she chose courage or comfort, as in an argument with her husband
- •Perfectionism is outwardly defined and a 20-ton shield that keeps us from being seen
- •Tim connects perfectionism to being future-focused, versus excellence-seekers who celebrate small wins
- 46:09 – 49:43
Influences: Philosophy, Grounded Theory, and Inspiration Everywhere
Tim notes parallels with Stoicism and Buddhism and asks which thinkers resonate with her findings. Brené explains that as a grounded theory researcher she builds theory from lived experience before reading the literature, and draws inspiration from sources ranging from Marcus Aurelius to Pixar and Rush.
- •Tim compares her findings to Stoic philosophy and Buddhism
- •Brené answers "all of the above," from Marcus Aurelius to liberation theology
- •Grounded theory builds from people's lived experiences, with literature review afterward
- •She sees no highbrow versus lowbrow division in inspiration
- •She cites Pema Chödrön, Toy Story, Rumi, Mary Oliver and Neil Peart
- 49:43 – 1:02:47
Oversharing, Boundaries, and Masculinity
Tim asks about people who mistake oversharing for vulnerability, and Brené says vulnerability minus boundaries is not vulnerability. Tim then raises concerns about the over-feminization of boys and military "suffer in silence" norms, and Brené says tough and tender can coexist.
- •Brené says vulnerability without boundaries can be desperation, oversharing or manipulation
- •She advises sharing with people who have earned the right to hear your story
- •A CEO example shows vulnerability belongs with mentors or advisors rather than just investors
- •Brené says the number one perpetrator of shame with men is women, based on her data
- •Boys raised only open or only tough both do poorly, so tough and tender should coexist
- 1:02:47 – 1:08:28
Daily Vulnerability Practice and Morning Routine
Asked about daily practices, Brené says vulnerability is a back-and-forth with trust, and she builds on Tim's insight that perfectionism is future-focused. Tim then asks about her morning routine, where she describes breathing, family tasks, running and swimming.
- •Vulnerability is a daily practice and trust and vulnerability build each other
- •Intense future-focused people may struggle with presence in intimate relationships
- •Her research has changed her marriage and home life most
- •She wakes around 6:30, avoids her phone, and handles breakfast, lunches and carpool
- •She runs 30 minutes and swims half an hour, calling swimming meditation, exercise and therapy
- 1:08:28 – 1:14:24
Rising Strong and Brené's Research Method
Brené describes Rising Strong as the third in a trilogy about falling and getting back up. She explains her interview process, snowball sampling and saturation in grounded theory, and recommends where readers might start.
- •The Gifts is about being you, Daring Greatly about being all in, and Rising Strong about getting up after a fall
- •The research asked what people who fall and get back up have in common
- •About 70% of interviews are individual, with snowball sampling and field notes rather than recordings
- •Saturation means being able to predict what the next person will say, with no outliers allowed
- •Which book to start with depends on where the reader is
- 1:14:24 – 1:27:18
Rapid-Fire Questions and Closing Asks
Tim asks quick questions on the word successful, a purchase under $100, a billboard message and advice to a 30-year-old self. Brené closes by asking listeners to lean into discomfort, and shares where to find her work.
- •Brené no longer uses the word successful and advises making sure your ladder leans against the right building
- •Her best under-$100 purchase is softer triathlon goggles
- •Her billboard would say "Talk less, listen more"
- •Her advice to her 30-year-old self is that it's okay to be afraid and to stop hustling
- •Her ask is to give vulnerability a shot, and she points to Courage Works and her social channels
