Leading ADHD Expert Shares New Emotional Dysregulation Trick

Dr. Tamara Rosier 0:00 Many of us with ADHD become very good at reading the room, and I become very good at understanding your emotions as a survival mechanism. This isn't good, though, when I'm trying to develop myself because it's sometimes I don't understand where you begin and I end because I'm so busy reading your emotions

Alex Partridge 0:16 So you're mirroring the person that you're having an interaction with-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 0:19 Yes

Alex Partridge 0:19 ... to protect yourself-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 0:21 To be safe

Alex Partridge 0:21 ... from criticism.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 0:22 Yes.

Alex Partridge 0:22 But a consequence of that is that's pulling you further away from understanding who you really are?

Dr. Tamara Rosier 0:27 Exactly.

Alex Partridge 0:28 Dr Tamara Rosier is an author who works exclusively with ADHD clients- To help them live more effectively with the condition ... with a PhD in teaching and a wealth of lived experience helping people with ADHD. Dr Tamara Rosier's mission is to help you realize your brain is not broken, just different.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 0:44 ADHD runs in families.

Alex Partridge 0:46 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 0:46 And so if it runs in families, oh, there might be someone else in my family who doesn't manage their emotions well. Oh, now that compounds my experience because if I were adopted into two neurotypical parents, maybe they would have structured my day. I would have less of a lag because of their structure, but now I'm just running to catch up. ADHD is not a strength, but we are heroes. Any time we succeed, any time we do anything, it's an underdog story. We should be celebrated like the heroes we are because it's hard. Everything is harder for us, and that's just a fact.

Alex Partridge 1:18 Loyal listeners and viewers, I can't thank you enough for tuning in. If you've ever felt broken or different, I hope this helps in your search for answers and community. And do you know what would really help me in return? By clicking the follow or subscribe button wherever you're listening. It might not seem like much, but at ADHD Chatter, it means a huge deal, and with this, I can book more incredible guests and keep the self-discovery fire alive for all of us, myself included. Just one click of a button goes really far. And remember, you have always been enough. Tamara, thank you so, so much for being here today. [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:58 It is great to be here. Thanks for having me.

Alex Partridge 2:01 So, so surreal when we know someone from, from the internet who-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 2:05 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 2:05 ... lives so far away-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 2:06 Right

Alex Partridge 2:06 ... and then they are in the studio. Thank you so much for making the journey.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 2:10 I was thinking the same about you.

Alex Partridge 2:11 [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 2:11 Like, "Hey, he's a real guy."

Alex Partridge 2:13 Yes. [laughs] I, I want to ask you a question, Tamara, that I ask all my guests first, and that's a really basic one, really.

Alex Partridge 2:20 Within the neurodiversity space, what's your mission?

Dr. Tamara Rosier 2:24 Yeah. I- So my first book is called Your Brain's Not Broken.

Alex Partridge 2:30 Yes.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 2:32 And I really wrote that entire book with just this strong mission just to g- say, "Folks, you're not broken. You're quirky, but you're not broken."

Alex Partridge 2:44 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 2:45 And that, I think that sums up my, my mission.

Alex Partridge 2:47 Mm. Why do you think so many people do feel that, though? Why do you think so many people do feel broken?

Dr. Tamara Rosier 2:54 Okay, so I'm gonna nerd out right away.

Alex Partridge 2:55 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 2:56 All right? And I know you know this, but you know the prefrontal cortex, right? Um, because, because we don't have reliable access to that, uh, we rely on our, our emotional centers, and we rely on emotions. We're like method actors-

Alex Partridge 3:11 Mm-hmm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 3:11 ... going around going, "What's my motivation?" Well, we're making emotional meaning out of everything. So if we feel a difference, then we start to feel, "Oh, that difference must be wrong." And then quickly, that turns into shame.

Alex Partridge 3:26 Yes.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 3:27 Plus, shame is a motivator for some of us, and so that's why I think.

Alex Partridge 3:36 Shame is a motivator.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 3:37 Oh, yes.

Alex Partridge 3:38 What would, what would, what type of motivation could shame create?

Dr. Tamara Rosier 3:43 A really crappy one. Uh, so there, uh, in my first book, I write about, uh, six bad ways to motivate our-

Alex Partridge 3:52 Mm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 3:52 ... selves and just some nasty things that we do. So anger can be very motivating, and again, because we ha- we don't have reliable access to our prefrontal cortex, we rely on the limbic center. And so we're looking for, "What's my emo- emotional motivation?" So we're out there going, "Oh, I've got it. I'll be angry. That's gonna motivate me." Um, shame is like this, shame and then its cousin, self-loathing, kind of creeps in there, and we'll use shame to try to measure up to what people think of us, to please others. Um, sometimes we develop just this negative voice in our head.

Alex Partridge 4:34 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 4:35 So we try to motivate, but these are lousy motivators, so please stop.

Alex Partridge 4:40 Shame is such a Achilles heel, I feel, within the community, but if it is understood, can it be channeled into a positive form of motivation?

Dr. Tamara Rosier 4:52 No. Let's get rid of shame. Let's 86 all of that.

Alex Partridge 4:56 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 4:56 Um, a- because a lot of us... All right, I'm gonna get kind of, get a little philosophical here.

Alex Partridge 5:02 Sure.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 5:04 And maybe controversial, and I don't mean to be.

Alex Partridge 5:06 Okay.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 5:07 But a lot of us with ADHD have a self-worth that isn't fully formed, and it's because we have an ADHD brain. We're relying on emotional signals all over the world, and then w- we don't develop our sense of self as strongly. We may have strong personalities, but our sense of self meaning, "Here's where I begin, and you end."

Alex Partridge 5:32 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 5:33 And a lot of my ADHD clients don't have that, and so what happens, uh, because of that, w- we don't develop this strong sense of, "I know who I am. I know what I stand for." Um, that, that means we can't handle things like shame. We can't handle things. Uh, we n- we really need to work on this identity to hold ourselves to go, "I know who I am, what I stand for." And I can be kind and gracious while still holding my boundaries. And a lot of ADHD folks don't have that

Alex Partridge 6:07 Mm. Not knowing who you are, I think is such a, a pandemic within the ADHD community. I've said before, I don't think it's a deficit of, s- of attention when we find something that is a true alignment with who we really are, we have an abundance. We can become the best in the world at that thing. I think it's more of a deficit of self-awareness because of years and years and years of masking-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 6:29 Absolutely

Alex Partridge 6:29 ... pretending, putting other people's needs ahead of yours. And I totally agree with you that it, ha- putting exercises in place to work on your self-awareness is the foundation of ADHD management-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 6:43 Right

Alex Partridge 6:43 ... because when you figure out who you really are, right, then when things come into your now, like a new job, a new relationship, a new person, a new hobby, you can, you can pick that apart and say, "Is that a good fit?" And then when you're making better decisions, then you're less likely to abandon. And when you s- less, and when you stop abandoning stuff, then your self-esteem goes up, your self-worth. All of the positives that I associate with ADHD go up.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 7:09 Right.

Alex Partridge 7:09 Do you agree with that assessment?

Dr. Tamara Rosier 7:11 Absolutely. Um, you know, the reason I said, "Hey, this can be a little bit controversial," is because people get very upset when I start talking about sense of identity. Again, they hear it as a broken message.

Alex Partridge 7:23 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 7:24 And I'm saying, oh no, we're just little kids growing up. We're just trying to survive. I mean, I remember being in third grade, I didn't know when recess was, and I looked around at the other kids, went, "Are these magicians? How do they know it's recess?"

Alex Partridge 7:38 [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 7:38 Like, how does everyone know things that I don't know? And so that was in third grade, and then fourth grade, fifth grade. So I'm just running, and you know that we run three to five years behind.

Alex Partridge 7:50 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 7:50 So I'm playi- trying to play this catch-up game. So instead of developing my healthy sense of identity, well, it, it's kinda chipped away. Like, "Tamara, you're not good enough. You're not, you're not doing it right. You should know this."

Alex Partridge 8:05 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 8:06 Right? I was, by the way, I was terribly embarrassed, I was in third grade, I didn't know my left from right. I have something called dyscalculia-

Alex Partridge 8:14 Mm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 8:15 ... um, too, which probably, um, is that. But that sense of being different. So as other kids were developing a sense of identity starting around 13, 14, 15, I'm still playing catch-up.

Alex Partridge 8:27 Mm. Yes.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 8:28 Going, "What's my left and right?" And so it's no wonder that we end up slower to develop a sense of, healthy sense of identity.

Alex Partridge 8:36 Those, th- the story you just said about being on the receiving end of criticisms i- in your early years, that is an echo of so many people listening. I think the statistic is 20,000 more negative criticism someone with ADHD will experience in their early years-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 8:51 Yeah

Alex Partridge 8:51 ... because of that difference. And a consequence of that is what, do you think? Do you think those criticisms can compound over a childhood to create a trauma?

Dr. Tamara Rosier 9:02 Oh. Oh, goodness, yes. They do. It, it is compounded. So now let's also add into another factor, right? ADHD runs in families.

Alex Partridge 9:12 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 9:13 And so if it runs in families, oh, there might be someone else in my family who doesn't manage their emotions well. Oh, now that compounds my experience, because if I were adopted into two neurotypical parents, maybe they would have structured my day. I would have less of a lag because of their structure, but now I'm just running to catch up, right?

Alex Partridge 9:38 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 9:39 So it, it's amazing. And I, I, my framework for ADHD people would be this: ADHD is not a strength, but we are heroes. Any time we succeed, any time we do anything, it's an underdog story, and we should be celebrated like the heroes we are, um, because it's hard. Everything is harder for us, and that's just the fact.

Alex Partridge 10:05 Absolutely, and it, it's one of the myths that I always try to debunk when I hear someone say, "People with ADHD just need to try harder-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 10:14 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 10:15 ... or work harder," because we are trying so much harder [laughs] underneath-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 10:19 Right

Alex Partridge 10:19 ... than, than the average person to achieve the same because of that invisible-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 10:24 Right

Alex Partridge 10:24 ... effort, that invisible workload that's going on inside our head, that inner critic.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 10:28 Right. So, so imagine this. I, well, [laughs] in executive function-

Alex Partridge 10:32 Mm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 10:32 ... or short-term memory issues, holy cow, it's amazing I can get dressed in the morning.

Alex Partridge 10:37 Yes. [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 10:38 And I mean, if you followed me around, you'd be like, oh, it is amazing she does anything.

Alex Partridge 10:43 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 10:44 But when one of us succeeds with ADHD, we should be celebrating that because that person had to work so much harder to get where they are. And that's just exciting

Dr. Tamara Rosier 10:55 to-

Alex Partridge 10:55 What do you think the difference is between someone who has ADHD and they do manage to reach certain highs that society would define them as successful, whereas the other group of people with ADHD who it is such a burden, it is such difficulty that they are struggling to get over the line? What is different between those two groups?

Dr. Tamara Rosier 11:18 Oh, yeah. I, you know, um, I just, I say this frequently, I'm lucky. I had a couple lucky breaks. So ADHD is very environmentally sensitive, which means the environment you're born into affects your ADHD and how you develop.

Alex Partridge 11:38 If someone's listening and they're thinking, "I haven't had many breaks, my, I, I don't have financial means to help me with some of the challenges. My family weren't very supportive. In fact, they sh- really shunned the, the diagnosis when I went to them. I don't have community around me to speak to people. I feel very alone," what advice would you give to somebody at that stage, who is, who is, who knows that they have ADHD, but they're really struggling to articulate the words to ask for help?

Dr. Tamara Rosier 12:05 I was that person. I didn't have a community at all. Um, and I was very alone, and it was a very hard time. And so if that person's listening, first of all, don't give up on yourself. Put all your bets on yourself. Um, something I love about ADHD, if you're wondering if you have ADHD and you think you have it, if you're sitting there wondering, you probably do.

Alex Partridge 12:30 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 12:30 I mean, if you're listening to this podcast, you're exploring-

Alex Partridge 12:32 Yes

Dr. Tamara Rosier 12:33 ... ah, you probably found your people.

Alex Partridge 12:36 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 12:36 So in this day and age, you can find your people. Let me tell you, once you meet an ADHD person, don't you just kind of feel-

Alex Partridge 12:43 Yeah [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 12:43 ... a kinship? Like, "Oh, you're ADHD?"

Alex Partridge 12:44 You start finishing each other's sentences and you're just off. You, you get that vibe straight away.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 12:49 You do. I, I can be, I can be at any party, and I will find the five ADHD people-

Alex Partridge 12:54 Mm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 12:54 ... at that party.

Alex Partridge 12:55 Yeah. The, the, the radar just goes beeping off when you s-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 12:58 Yes

Alex Partridge 12:58 ... you come across one.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 13:00 Yes. So I just want to encourage your listener, um, don't give up on yourself. Um, and do the self-work, work that you need to do. Um, a lot of times out of our pain we'll try to wall ourselves off. Go against that and really try to break down the wa-

Alex Partridge 13:17 Mm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 13:17 ... walls to break out. And there's so many ADHD friends around you that you don't even know yet. I, I, I'm staying above a pub, and I was just sitting in the pub this m- this afternoon watching, and I'm just going, "Oh, I bet you that person has ADHD. That person has ADHD." So I'm not trying to have your listeners develop a drinking problem-

Alex Partridge 13:40 [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 13:41 ... but maybe a pub would be a good place-

Alex Partridge 13:43 Yeah

Dr. Tamara Rosier 13:43 ... for you.

Alex Partridge 13:44 Yeah.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 13:44 Have some still water and make friends.

Alex Partridge 13:46 Yeah. People watch and think-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 13:47 Yeah

Alex Partridge 13:47 ... that person.

Alex Partridge 13:48 If you're looking at and you see somebody and you think, "They have ADHD," what do you think are the flags of ADHD more broadly?

Dr. Tamara Rosier 13:56 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 13:56 I read on your website, you wrote that i- it's forgetfulness and irritability, but are there some niche subcategories that really explore that a bit deeper? What characteristics would you look for in someone who-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 14:09 Yeah

Alex Partridge 14:10 ... to you would be like ding, ding, ding-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 14:11 Oh, yeah

Alex Partridge 14:11 ... ADHD? [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 14:13 Uh, okay. So ADHD people tend to use more of our faces than other 80- not ADHD. Um, sometimes I'll say, "Oh, do you have ADHD?" Like, if we're in an ADHD conference or something.

Alex Partridge 14:25 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 14:25 And that, I'm just saying, I'm saying that to go, "I already know because of how you use your face." So what happens is we use muscles. There are, um, muscles in our face that we can't control, right? Uh, those of us with ADHD, um, use a lot more of those muscles. Um, and so for the professional, uh, professionals who can detect lies in faces, we're an easy read.

Alex Partridge 14:54 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 14:54 Um, all those microexpressions are just popping out.

Alex Partridge 14:57 Yes.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 14:57 So I can usually tell. Um, I can also tell in my clients when they haven't taken their medication the day, that day, because their eye movements are very sharp. Um, also ADHD people really are the most interesting to me. So if you're highly interesting, using a lot of your face muscle-

Alex Partridge 15:14 Mm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 15:15 ... muscles, I'm like, "Odds are you're my people."

Alex Partridge 15:18 [laughs] We, we- our internal BS radar is off the charts.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 15:23 Oh, right.

Alex Partridge 15:23 We can detect when someone's not being truthful.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 15:25 Oh.

Alex Partridge 15:25 We can see s- through someone's BS and d- see their true agenda before other people can.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 15:30 You know, being authentic, it is so funny, for people who really have to mask-

Alex Partridge 15:37 Mm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 15:37 ... to get through life, we really value authenticity. You know, um, when I, I wrote my first book, I was so embarrassed to put it out there-

Alex Partridge 15:47 Mm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 15:47 ... because I thought I was too vulnerable. I've said too much. "Tamara, you should have just not have taken any risk." And yet the number one comment is, "You were vulnerable in this book."

Alex Partridge 15:59 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 15:59 And if you know me, I don't like to be vulnerable. I'd rather just kind of not. But I think our ADHD people, our, our group really values that authenticity, vulnerability.

Alex Partridge 16:13 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 16:14 And when we meet, that's, I think that's what we land on, is this authentic self.

Alex Partridge 16:21 What do you think causes it? Where do you think it comes from, this kind of intuition, this being able to spot danger? 'Cause I've got my theory that it's, it's, it's related to those 20,000 negative comments we had as a kid, right? Um, stop fidgeting. Why are you so weird? And, and the compounding effects of those-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 16:38 Yes

Alex Partridge 16:38 ... creates us, creates us ultra aware of danger, so we're, we're always on alert.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 16:44 Yes.

Alex Partridge 16:45 And we can see risks. We see people's true intentions, and it's connected to our early years experience of being in danger.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 16:54 Right.

Alex Partridge 16:54 So as an adult, we've always got, like, this, this radar. I joked saying it's the BS radar, but really it's a response to all of those criticisms. Do you-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 17:02 It is

Alex Partridge 17:03 ... do you agree with that?

Dr. Tamara Rosier 17:04 So the human brain, well, all mammals are obsessed with being safe, right? So as a child, we sat in school, we went home, and we learned to turn up the volume to listen for safety-

Alex Partridge 17:17 Mm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 17:18 ... because of all those m- comments. Like, "You didn't put your name on your paper. You didn't do this. You didn't do this." And they might not even be insults, but just not measuring up comments.

Alex Partridge 17:29 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 17:29 Right? So, so all that, we turn up the radar and we become very empathic. We become very good, um, many of us with ADHD, this isn't obviously true across the board, but many of us-

Alex Partridge 17:42 Mm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 17:43 ... become, become very good at reading the room, and I become very good at understanding your emotions as a survival mechanism.

Alex Partridge 17:51 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 17:52 Now, remember I talked about how this isn't good though when I'm trying to develop myself because it's sometimes I don't understand where you begin and I end-

Alex Partridge 18:02 Mm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 18:03 ... because I'm so busy reading your emotions.

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Dr. Tamara Rosier 19:49 Yes

Alex Partridge 19:49 ... to protect yourself-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 19:51 To be safe

Alex Partridge 19:51 ... from criticism.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 19:53 Yes.

Alex Partridge 19:53 But a consequence of that is that's pulling you further away from understanding who you really are?

Dr. Tamara Rosier 19:58 Exactly. Nicely done.

Alex Partridge 20:01 The sensitivity to our surroundings and being acutely aware of people's facial expressions, people's moods, people's true agendas, that can be very beneficial. It's almost like a, a, a survival instinct. But on the other side of that, it can make us very sensitive to criticisms.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 20:20 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 20:22 [laughs] You know exactly what I'm talking about.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 20:24 I'm sorry, the, that's the understatement of the year, right?

Alex Partridge 20:26 [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 20:27 So, you know, very honestly, I'll finish this interview-

Alex Partridge 20:31 Mm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 20:31 ... I'll leave, and I'll think, "Oh, gosh, I hope he, I hope he enjoyed himself. I hope he did a good job. I, you know, feel, feels like this was good, I hope." Because I don't leave here going, "Yeah, that was a great conversation, Tamara. You did great." Like, "Oh, I, I don't know. How did everyone else feel-

Alex Partridge 20:51 Mm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 20:51 ... about it?" Now, I'm a pro, so I have, I have a good talk to give to myself. I'll, I'll go out those doors, down the stairs, and start saying, "Tamara, it is what it is. You did your best. It's fine." But do you see what I have to do? It's a secondary learned behavior.

Alex Partridge 21:07 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 21:07 Because I'm so used to tuning in to go, "Are you happy? Is this, is this what you had planned on?" Um, you see the sense of self gets a little wobbly there, right? Now, what if we finished and you said, "Tamara, that was awful"? And then I say, "Oh, I thought it was okay."

Alex Partridge 21:30 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 21:31 Now do, because of all that emotional dysregulation, I'm, I'm more apt to just take that in in- instead of saying, "I disagree, I thought it was a great conversation. Um, you know, can you tell me more about that?" I'm more apt to say, "Oh, gosh, he's probably right. And you know what else this means? I'm a horrible person."

Alex Partridge 21:53 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 21:54 Do you see how we just take in the rejection-

Alex Partridge 21:56 Mm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 21:56 ... and we start to build and build? And it's because it goes back to those boundaries, those earlier boundaries of, well, Alex wasn't pleased, but I was. You see how messy this can get in relationships?

Alex Partridge 22:08 It, it escalates so quickly, doesn't it? Like, I can, firstly, I reassure you I'm having a great time. You're brilliant.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 22:12 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 22:13 And I don't, and I don't hate you. [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 22:15 [laughs] And I think you're brilliant, too.

Alex Partridge 22:17 [laughs] Uh, it's classic, isn't it? You can have a great conversation with someone at a party, doing a podcast-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 22:22 Exactly

Alex Partridge 22:23 ... at an event, and it can go really well, but then you can leave and you're like, "Oh, no, I overshared again."

Dr. Tamara Rosier 22:30 What have I done?

Alex Partridge 22:31 "And that person thinks that I'm too much and, and now hates me."

Dr. Tamara Rosier 22:34 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 22:35 It's that, it's that realization that, it's that inner critic kind of screaming at you-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 22:40 Yes. Yes

Alex Partridge 22:41 ... telling you that that person genuinely, the friendship's over now, that you can't possibly maintain the friendship 'cause that person now hates you.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 22:48 I, I love when someone, um, calls and says, um, "Call me."

Alex Partridge 22:52 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 22:52 And it, let's say, um, I do some leadership coaching, coaching too, and if someone says, "Please call me," I'm like, "Well, they're going to cut off the engagement. They've seen through me. I'm no good at what I do."

Alex Partridge 23:04 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 23:05 I go there so quickly. Now, I'm overstating it, but I'm, these are my innate thoughts. Not innate, these are my developed thoughts, but I have to get the secondary process to go, "Hold up, Tamara. Let's go back to the boundaries. Who are you and what do you stand for?"

Alex Partridge 23:24 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 23:24 "What do you believe?" And so I have to always keep going back. I leave conversations all the time going, "Oh, was I dumb? Did I sound stupid?" And, you know, it's really, I, I think so many of us with ADHD do this.

Alex Partridge 23:42 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 23:43 And it, it looks like we're not c- we don't have confidence in ourselves. In the moment it can look like confidence, and then afterwards we're like, "What have I done?" [laughs]

Alex Partridge 23:52 But there's brilliance there all the time. Like, you, you, you are never too much. You are always amazing. It's just that inner child that has been exposed to all of that nastiness-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 24:03 Yeah

Alex Partridge 24:04 ... is trying to tell you that you're broken because of all those horrible comments. And like, what, the, the way you're acting in the here and the now isn't, there's nothing wrong with that. It's amazing.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 24:13 Right. Right.

Alex Partridge 24:13 It's not a pr- it's, it's almost like your nervous system is so terrified of being snapped back to those early criticisms. It's so terrified of being triggered.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 24:23 Well, okay, let's talk about that for a second. Uh, and I, I talk about this in my second book, um, but I- There's a monkey. I, there's a whole monkeys, set of monkeys in my head, right?

Alex Partridge 24:36 [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 24:37 And so they're all there talking. So I have Anxious Amy, I, I have Critical Calvin, and, um, gosh, I, I've got a lot of them, but let's just deal with Critical Calvin for a minute. Critical Calvin hops up on my shoulder, invisible monkey. No, I don't actually hear voices.

Alex Partridge 24:56 [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 24:56 Okay? That's a whole different-

Alex Partridge 24:57 Good disclaimer [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 24:58 ... that's a different podcast. But, um, so the monkey pops up, Critical Calvin pops up on my shoulder and says, "Well, Tamara, you told that story again, didn't you? I told you not to be that open. People think you're stupid now." And then Anxious Amy, the other monkey, goes, "Oh, dear. Oh, dear. What if he's right? Oh, that sounds familiar." That's her voice.

Alex Partridge 25:25 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 25:25 And Critical Calvin is, they just kind get together and start talking, and both monkeys are there to help me. They've, they've developed their ADHD symptoms, but they've become coping mechanisms to protect me. And so I have to learn to look at Critical Calvin and say, "Hey, buddy, I know you sound like a jerk, but you're just trying to help me."

Alex Partridge 25:49 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 25:50 "You're trying to keep me safe." So I'm not going... I don't wanna flick him off my shoulder. I don't wanna hurt him. I wanna treat him with kindness and say, "Thank you, but I think you're wrong." And Anxious Amy, "Thank you. I know you're just worried about a lot-

Alex Partridge 26:05 Hmm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 26:05 ... but I think it's okay." And so I have to learn to talk to my inner critic and to guide my inner critic into... I, some, sometimes people are like, "Just shut, shut your inner critic out." Like, no, they're trying to help you.

Alex Partridge 26:20 Hmm. It's so interesting. Do you think it's possible to, in your quest to find your true self and limit the, the amount that you mask, but in doing that, are you, in effect, rejecting your inner child? And in doing so, can you trigger yourself?

Dr. Tamara Rosier 26:42 Wow. Nice. I think that's a great thought. I haven't thought about it exactly like that. But-

Alex Partridge 26:51 Neither have I [laughs] .

Dr. Tamara Rosier 26:53 [laughs] I love it. You just set a puzzle for us, and I love this.

Alex Partridge 26:56 I think if, if you're, if, if, uh, in essence, if you're masking, you're obviously not being true to your inner child.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 27:02 Right.

Alex Partridge 27:03 Therefore, are you rejecting yourself?

Dr. Tamara Rosier 27:06 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 27:06 And in doing so, are you living in a constant state of being triggered subconsciously?

Dr. Tamara Rosier 27:11 I think you're right. I haven't, I have not put it together like this. So inside each one of us is inner child-

Alex Partridge 27:21 Hmm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 27:21 ... and we usually have, like, two. So mine is a 12-year-old, and they usually go with points in your life that something big happened to you, right? So my 12-year-old, um, pops up, and she had to be tougher before she wanted to be tough, right? Um, she had to stand up to some, some people that other adults wouldn't stand up for-

Alex Partridge 27:49 Hmm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 27:50 ... too. And so this kid had to be tough. And actually, I think my 12-year-old could be part of the mask. Um, I always have to go back to reassure the 12-year-old, "Hey, it's okay."

Alex Partridge 28:05 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 28:06 "We've grown up. I have more sophisticated systems now. We don't have to fight. We can do other things. I can use my words differently." So it's a way of actually calming my 12-year-old. I, in, in me, at least, my 12-year-old is part of the mask. I, I'm tougher than what I am.

Alex Partridge 28:24 I had Ned Hallowell on the podcast, and he, he said his number one advice for all of this, for all of this is to, to never worry alone and to find your tribe, find community, have a support network of people that truly understand your lived experience so you can bounce off each other.

Alex Partridge 28:42 How important do you think it is to, to find your tribe? How soothing can that be?

Dr. Tamara Rosier 28:47 Well, we all want to just be seen and valued for who we are.

Alex Partridge 28:52 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 28:55 And I think there's such immense joy when we find people who just see us, and we're, we're actually relaxed, and we don't have to be anyone else. So even if, if it's just one other person that you can just totally be yourself with, I, I don't think you need a whole tribe. I think just that one person who sees you-

Alex Partridge 29:19 Hmm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 29:19 ... and gets you is a gift of a lifetime. Um, I am a co- , uh, leader for the ADHD conference, the International ADHD Conference on A- I don't know. I can never say our title right.

Alex Partridge 29:33 [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 29:33 It's the big conference-

Alex Partridge 29:34 Sure [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 29:34 ... in the US. Oh, I hope no one's hearing this. Uh, but anyway, uh, so I see all of these ADHD folks come together-

Alex Partridge 29:45 Hmm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 29:45 ... and you'll see in the hallway of, like, "You have ADHD? I have ADHD."

Alex Partridge 29:49 [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 29:49 "We're gonna have lunch together." And there's just this excitement of being seen.

Alex Partridge 29:54 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 29:55 Uh, there's a lot of times at this conference where people will cry, um, because they're, they'll sit through a session and go, "No one has seen me like this before." Um, and so that's the beautiful part. We're everywhere.

Alex Partridge 30:11 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 30:11 We have infiltrated everywhere [laughs] .

Alex Partridge 30:15 [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 30:15 So finding-

Alex Partridge 30:17 Hmm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 30:17 ... at least one other person, just start looking. You know the, um, the psychological principle of if you start looking for yellow cars, you'll see yellow cars?

Alex Partridge 30:27 Yes.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 30:28 So I want to say to your, to your listeners, start looking for ADHD people.

Alex Partridge 30:33 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 30:34 Follow your gut. You're gonna find them.

Alex Partridge 30:35 Hmm. Out of all of the- People that you have found, your tribe, people with ADHD, what do you think is the most debilitating aspects of the condition?

Dr. Tamara Rosier 30:49 [laughs] Sorry. Uh, for me personally, it's... Oh goodness, my working memory.

Alex Partridge 30:57 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 30:58 I mean, it can almo- I need parental supervision some days.

Alex Partridge 31:00 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 31:01 It, it's amazing how my short-term memory is bad. Um, and that's very, it, it's not just because I'm super old.

Alex Partridge 31:10 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 31:11 It's, this is literally part of the ADHD experience. So I don't know if this has happened to you, but have you ever said, "Okay, future self, I'm gonna set yourself, I, I'm gonna set us up for the next day. I'm going to lay out this, and I'm gonna do this and do all this." That's great. You know what my future self does? Forgets that all happened. Now, sometimes I'm delightfully surprised if I discover it, but I have to leave enough trails-

Alex Partridge 31:39 Mm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 31:40 ... um, for myself to remember that I did it.

Alex Partridge 31:42 I have a great hack to solve that problem, because I used to do the same. I used to, I realized that my nighttime brain was, was, like, great.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 31:49 Yes.

Alex Partridge 31:50 Great, efficient, optimal. Morning brain, first half of the day, terrible, so I plan my day the night before, like you just said.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 31:55 Yep.

Alex Partridge 31:55 But I write those five, the five high-priority tasks that I decide upon, I write them on little bracelets. Those little cheap rubber bracelets you can buy on the internet.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 32:05 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 32:05 And I write each task on, on a bracelet, and I put all five on in the morning. And as I go through my day and I complete each task, I take off the corresponding bracelet and I put it in a bowl.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 32:15 Oh.

Alex Partridge 32:15 And if I fill up the bowl [laughs] which sometimes happens, then I rewa- reward myself. I buy myself something off my Amazon wishlist.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 32:22 I love that.

Alex Partridge 32:22 So I gamify it as well. [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 32:24 I love that.

Alex Partridge 32:26 Where do you think this, the, the, the, the m- memory issues comes from? Because I know lots of the, the diagnostic, the DSM5, it speaks about executive function challenges and dopamine and noradrenaline issues in the prefrontal cortex, but I don't think it focuses enough on the emotional aspects-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 32:44 Right

Alex Partridge 32:44 ... of ADHD, and going back to those 20,000 g- negative criticisms we had as a kid. And because of that, as an adult, I truly believe it, it creates a lived experience of always living in the now, um, because we're always alert for danger.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 33:01 Right.

Alex Partridge 33:01 We're always in the present.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 33:03 Yes.

Alex Partridge 33:03 And things that are in our past and things that are in our future can, because of object permanence, really cease to exist. So things leave our now, and we've, we forget about them, and I think there is an emotional therefore, emotional explanation befo- behind some of the memory challenges that we face.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 33:24 Well, so, um, the memory challenges, we tend to store memories, um, and this is kind of, uh, in emotional reg- in our emotions.

Alex Partridge 33:34 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 33:34 So you and I tend to rely on emotional memories. So you remember how someone made you feel, right?

Alex Partridge 33:42 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 33:43 That's how we store memories. Uh, our schools expect us to have semantic memories, prefrontal cortex activity, right? So, uh, we store memories differently. Short-term memory isn't part of the exec- is part of the executive function, and it's a very weak thing. And it's like short-term memory should be a whiteboard, and you should be able to write on it-

Alex Partridge 34:08 Mm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 34:08 ... and just working memory says, "Here, I'll hold that for a moment" it should be there. But my whiteboard is so tiny, and it has an invisible marker, and so it's, it's like it's gone as soon as I write it. And so I really can't rely on short-term memory.

Alex Partridge 34:27 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 34:27 And it's, it's almost funny how bad my short-term memory is.

Alex Partridge 34:32 Yeah, it's why so many of us forget our clothes in the laundry, right? In the, in the washing machine. [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 34:36 Exactly.

Alex Partridge 34:36 Because we put it on, and then we go upstairs and whatever.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 34:38 Then it disappears.

Alex Partridge 34:39 Yes. [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 34:40 Yeah. [laughs] Now, um, so to compensate, we go to our limbic center to kind of raise our emotions.

Alex Partridge 34:48 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 34:48 So if I want to remember the, the clothes in the, uh, washer, I'll say, "Tamara, you have to remember, because you want to wear this, and you w- you won't feel good if you don't want, if you don't, if you don't get this out or what"

Alex Partridge 35:03 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 35:03 You know, like I'll, I'll have to create some kind of emotional memory about how I will feel-

Alex Partridge 35:09 Mm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 35:10 ... if I don't get these clothes moved.

Alex Partridge 35:12 That's really interesting. So you're kind of-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 35:14 It's so much more complicated than just remembering

Alex Partridge 35:16 ... you're sort of hacking the experience by putting an emotional consequence of forgetting-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 35:23 Right

Alex Partridge 35:23 ... into the equation.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 35:24 Right.

Alex Partridge 35:25 That's fascinating.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 35:26 But that's exhausting.

Alex Partridge 35:27 Mm. It's not, it's not an autopilot feature, right?

Dr. Tamara Rosier 35:31 I'm sorry?

Alex Partridge 35:32 It's not like an automatic function.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 35:33 It's not automatic, no. Um, I have to constantly learn to hack my brain.

Alex Partridge 35:38 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 35:39 I have to constantly think, "Okay, how is it that I'm going to be able to remember this?" And if it's important, now, granted, I can write a Post-it Note, but that's just clothes in the washer. Think of all the other hundreds of things I do in the day.

Alex Partridge 35:54 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 35:55 Right? So if I, if I'm saying, "I want that pair of socks out of there, because it's going to be a cold night, and wow, will those socks feel good"

Alex Partridge 36:04 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 36:05 That's my emotional bookmark to go back to.

Alex Partridge 36:08 Are there other, other examples of how emotion could be hacked to improve working memory?

Dr. Tamara Rosier 36:15 Well, I can guarantee you your listeners hack their emotions all the time-

Alex Partridge 36:19 Mm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 36:19 ... but in a negative way.

Alex Partridge 36:20 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 36:22 So, um, in my book, I call it, like, an angry neighbor. So, so if you imagine, uh, that there's just this friendly, calm butler in the prefrontal cortex-

Alex Partridge 36:32 Okay

Dr. Tamara Rosier 36:33 ... and he say, "Alex, it's time to get ready to go. Alex, your shoes are over there. Your keys are there. Remember to grab your lunch on your way out And you're like, "Wow, thank you, butler. You are helpful." And he says, "Of course." We don't have that, do we? We have in- instead, in our limbic center, this little angry neighbor, and he takes off his shoe, and he's yelling at you over the fence.

Alex Partridge 37:00 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 37:00 And he's throwing his shoe at you, and he's like, "Alex, I told you not to forget your lunch." You hear the emotional hacking?

Alex Partridge 37:07 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 37:08 He's just an angry neighbor trying to remind you, "This is the last time you're going to do that."

Alex Partridge 37:13 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 37:14 And he chucks things at you while you're just... That's the kind of relationship we have instead of this calm, lovely butler in the- in our prefrontal cortex. So ADHD folks, we have all kinds of emotions swirling around there. We're already hacking it in a negative way, and that's usually damaging to ourselves and to our relationships.

Alex Partridge 37:38 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 37:38 And so we really want to try to hack it in a positive way. Um, it's hard. So it could be this, "Well, changing the laundry is very important for me. You know what? I'm gonna set a timer on my phone, and I will be okay when the timer goes off. I'll still do it, and if for some reason I don't, I'm not going to hate myself."

Alex Partridge 38:00 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 38:02 That's, that's a better way than just with that metaphorical angry neighbor throwing things at you.

Alex Partridge 38:07 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 38:08 "Tamara, I told you to take it out of the laundry." Rah, rah, rah.

Alex Partridge 38:11 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 38:13 I wanna talk about RSD for a second. How would you define RSD?

Dr. Tamara Rosier 38:18 Oh, you know, every- everyone wants to be accepted and loved, but those of us with ADHD have a very sensitive trigger.

Alex Partridge 38:32 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 38:33 And so I define RSD as anything that triggers the, "I'm not okay."

Alex Partridge 38:40 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 38:41 "I'm not okay." And, and we talked earlier how sensitive we are to our environment. Wow, RSD just affects us, doesn't it?

Alex Partridge 38:50 Out of the, the many people that you've coached with ADHD, can you just... Do you see a common theme of things that might trigger RSD?

Dr. Tamara Rosier 38:59 It, it's really everything. So let, let's look at not what triggers it. Let's look at the effects of it.

Alex Partridge 39:07 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 39:08 So let's say we have a married couple, and a married couple anticipates, "Oh, if I say that to him, he's going to reject me, so I don't say that important thing." Or, um, you might say, you know, um, "Well, I don't, I don't like spaghetti for dinner," and then I hear, "He hates me."

Alex Partridge 39:30 Yes.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 39:31 And so RSD is very complicated for us because it creates inward dra- inward kind of drama. Also, it creates outward drama. It changes how we act to- with each other. Uh, we don't take risks because we're afraid of being rejected.

Alex Partridge 39:49 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 39:49 Um, we, we fear that we've hurt someone, right?

Alex Partridge 39:55 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 39:55 Um, and let's, let's add that a lot of people with ADHD are very sensitive people. Um, and I don't know about you, but I hate to think when I hurt someone. Um, is that true for you? I'm just wondering.

Alex Partridge 40:08 100%. We feel things so much more. I think-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 40:11 Yes

Alex Partridge 40:11 ... it, it's not always RSD that does the damage. It's the things I put around myself to protect myself-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 40:21 Yeah

Alex Partridge 40:21 ... from the possibility of being triggered.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 40:24 Right.

Alex Partridge 40:24 It is the people pleasing.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 40:26 Yep.

Alex Partridge 40:26 It is the saying yes to things that I really, really don't want to do because I don't want to upset someone.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 40:34 Yes.

Alex Partridge 40:34 It's the inability to put boundaries around myself. It's essentially being a yes-man. It's that which creates this cycle of over-committing to stuff.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 40:44 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 40:45 And then what does that cause?

Dr. Tamara Rosier 40:46 Right.

Alex Partridge 40:47 Like, the crash, the burnout.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 40:49 So I, I have a check-in that I do with myself weekly.

Alex Partridge 40:53 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 40:53 It's kind of a check-in, like, "How, how, how are we doing, Tams? How, how are we doing in this world?" And one of the questions is, "Have you faced RSD at least once this week?" And what that question means for me is, have I done something that I could have been rejected for? Now, I like that question for me because it keeps me living a risky life.

Alex Partridge 41:16 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 41:17 Have I taken a risk? Um, I sent in a proposal to a book a couple years ago, and I thought, "All right, they are going to reject me-

Alex Partridge 41:26 Mm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 41:26 ... and I am going to be okay with that." And guess what? They did reject me, and they said, "We don't want that book, but we want you to write this book instead." I said, "Well, I can do that." And so I risked being rejected. Um-

Alex Partridge 41:42 But they just redirected you. It wasn't a rejection.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 41:44 It, it-

Alex Partridge 41:44 It was just a redirect

Dr. Tamara Rosier 41:45 Well, at first I'm like, "They didn't want that."

Alex Partridge 41:48 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 41:48 Guess what? They were right. They're publishers. They know, right? And they took a risk on me, and I really appreciate that, but I had to put myself out there. And so I think instead of maybe us describing what RSD is, because I think your listeners know, like, we just say RSD, and they're like, "Ooh, ooh, ooh."

Alex Partridge 42:06 Yes. [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 42:06 Like [laughs] it's like-

Alex Partridge 42:08 The pain

Dr. Tamara Rosier 42:08 ... that moment in Lion King-

Alex Partridge 42:09 Yes

Dr. Tamara Rosier 42:09 ... where the-

Alex Partridge 42:10 Yeah

Dr. Tamara Rosier 42:10 ... hyenas are like, "Ooh, Mufasa-

Alex Partridge 42:12 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 42:12 ... say it again." [laughs]

Alex Partridge 42:13 Yes.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 42:14 It's like we know where-

Alex Partridge 42:14 That disarms it if you just imagine it's a lion. [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 42:17 Yeah. [laughs] Ooh. We don't... And so everyone does know what it is. Let's, let's maybe talk about how we put ourselves out there. How-

Alex Partridge 42:25 Mm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 42:25 ... what's the antidote to it? Sorry, I'm, I'm not the interviewer. I just asked you a question, but-

Alex Partridge 42:31 Mm. Well, for me, it's about looking at the things I put around me to protect myself from being triggered, and how do you, how do you manage those?

Dr. Tamara Rosier 42:40 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 42:40 Like, the people pleasing is, is huge. I, I was always a yes-man. Like, my knee-jerk-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 42:45 Yes

Alex Partridge 42:45 ... reaction when asked to do anything, whether that was taking on a work project or go to a social event, was an instant yes Because I thought-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 42:53 Yeah

Alex Partridge 42:53 ... I can't possibly say no. They'll, they'll hate me.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 42:56 Right.

Alex Partridge 42:56 But just a simple reframe of, of that, rather than saying yes, say, "Can I let you know tomorrow?"

Dr. Tamara Rosier 43:02 Right.

Alex Partridge 43:02 Like, a simple adjustment puts-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 43:04 Antidote number one

Alex Partridge 43:04 ... space between-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 43:05 Excellent. Yeah

Alex Partridge 43:06 ... and that itself is a boundary, and you realize that after 24 hours goes past, a lot of the time it's not a yes, it's a no.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 43:13 Right. You know, a lot of people with RSD want to be understood, and one of the... I have this speaking pattern in my own life, I catch it all the time. We want to be u- understood, so we're gonna go the extra mile-

Alex Partridge 43:25 Mm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 43:26 ... to try to explain. Like, wait, wait, wait, don't say anything until I... I just want you to understand and not reject what I have to say, right?

Alex Partridge 43:32 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 43:33 So even in speech, we have to be under- be willing to challenge ourselves in speech. So let's say I'm in a meeting with all neurotypicals, so I'm already feeling like the black sheep, and I know that if I'm likable, everyone's going to like me, but I don't agree with something, and so how do I bring it up in a meeting, right? So I have to understand this RSD that I'm feeling. I already feel like the black sheep because I know that I'm neurotyp- I'm not, uh, I'm neurodivergent and I'm in a neurotypical world.

Alex Partridge 44:14 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 44:14 Okay, take a deep breath. I'm gonna take the risk. I have a question. And then I pause, I take, I, and I t- pause and, "I have a question." "Yes, Tamara?" "I'm wondering if it's going to work out this way or this way", and it's a way that I've learned to disagree in still a likable way that's safe enough for me.

Alex Partridge 44:39 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 44:40 Um, it's, now, there is a blunt side of the ADHD that says, "I don't like this idea. I think it's really stupid", but I know that [laughs] if I let that out-

Alex Partridge 44:49 Mm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 44:50 ... I do risk being rejected, and then I'll punish myself later for that.

Alex Partridge 44:54 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 44:54 So even in our speech, we have to address all of the RSD, right? So are there times when you should be saying, "No, I don't understand this", or, "Is there a better way?" Um, so if, if your listeners start to look, RSD is everywhere. Um, look to your closest relationships, look to your work relationships, and then start to analyze, does it come out in my speech? Does it come out in my behavior?

Alex Partridge 45:22 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 45:22 Like, yes, I'll do that for you. Yes. Um, does it come out in your attitude? Like, yes, I am just going to pretend everything's okay right now when it's really not.

Alex Partridge 45:33 Mm. And I think the more you stand up for yourself in those environments, in that meeting, or when someone asks you to go to a social event and you don't instantly say yes, like, the more you do that, the more you realize that that's okay.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 45:48 Yes.

Alex Partridge 45:48 And it's, and it's never, ever met with hostility like you feared it would be. It's never, ever met with that person thinking that you're rude.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 45:55 Um-

Alex Partridge 45:55 It's, "Okay, let me know tomorrow"

Dr. Tamara Rosier 45:56 ... maybe I'm hanging r- out with wrong people, but sometimes it can be met with an impatience-

Alex Partridge 46:05 Mm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 46:06 ... of, "No, we've already decided this." But you're not understanding that if we do this, this could happen. And I, I, I s- so I have to go back and say, "I- do I have a valuable insight? Do I belong? Do I have a seat at this table? Do I belong here?"

Alex Partridge 46:24 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 46:25 The answer's yes, then I have to stand up to myself and say, "Tamara, put your rejection sensitivity aside-

Alex Partridge 46:31 [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 46:31 ... and say what needs to be said."

Alex Partridge 46:34 Mm. In the moment where someone is triggered and that horrible feeling that everyone is very familiar with comes to the surface, that internalized anger or sadness is very present and in, in the moment, in those moments, do you have any advice, any tips for someone on how to get through that?

Dr. Tamara Rosier 46:55 Yeah. Um, this isn't going to sound great, but take a deep breath, and there's times you have to stand up to yourself and not believe the narrative that you've written. So it, it looks like I have this, I have this script going, "They're hating me. They're hating me, I'm pretty sure." Take a deep breath, stand up to yourself and say, "Listen, you belong here. Say what you need to say. Be true to yourself. Say it in a kind way, but be true." So you have to stand up to yourself for it.

Alex Partridge 47:28 It's having that moment of awareness that you are not broken, you're just different, and I think the earlier someone can have that moment of realization-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 47:37 Yeah

Alex Partridge 47:37 ... the, the, the better.

Alex Partridge 47:38 What sort of practical tools can you offer to help people with ADHD to first recognize some of their shortcomings or, or maybe their blind spots, if any, and then to manage those?

Dr. Tamara Rosier 47:51 Yeah, I don't know. I don't have any blind spots, so I can't answer that really.

Alex Partridge 47:57 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 47:57 Um, and I, obviously, I'm trying to be funny. Um, th-

Alex Partridge 48:02 [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 48:02 None of us know we have blind spots-

Alex Partridge 48:04 Mm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 48:04 ... and so we really need to ask people.

Alex Partridge 48:06 Sorry, that joke went right over my head. [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 48:08 [laughs] I, I know. That's why I had to explain it, but we're good. We're good.

Alex Partridge 48:12 Yeah.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 48:12 Um, you went, "Oh-

Alex Partridge 48:13 [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 48:13 ... this is gonna be an awkward conversation" [laughs] .

Alex Partridge 48:16 [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 48:18 Uh, no, but in all seriousness-

Alex Partridge 48:20 Mm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 48:20 ... we don't know that we have blind spots.

Alex Partridge 48:21 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 48:22 And so, uh, we can't say, "Go work on your blind spot", because we really cannot see it, by definition. I, I have a neurotypical daughter. I have several not neurotypical daughters.

Alex Partridge 48:37 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 48:37 And they're a hoot, too. But my neurotypical daughter gently, and she, and lovingly, actually, points out, uh, my blind spots to me. And when I was writing my last book, uh, my husband comes up, um, I was in the middle of writing, and it was a book, it, it was a chapter on communication. He comes up, he looks at me and says Oh, uh, we need to do this, this, and he's talking to me, and I'm looking at him to answer, and he looks right at me, turns and walks away. And I turn to my daughter, I'm like, "Well, that's odd.

Alex Partridge 49:14 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 49:15 What was that? He walked out in the middle of a conversation." And she looked at me and said, "You both do that." [laughs] I'm like, "Moi, kitten? No. [laughs] Certainly not me."

Alex Partridge 49:27 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 49:27 I, I could never do that. And she's like, "Oh yeah, you did it to me this morning." Well, she just exposed a blind spot.

Alex Partridge 49:36 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 49:36 Now, I have the responsibility to be curious about that blind s- blind spot, instead of saying, "Hey, you dumb kid, you don't know anything," to say, "Can you, can you tell me more?"

Alex Partridge 49:47 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 49:47 Right? So when you find a blind spot, be curious about it because those of us with ADHD have all kinds of quirks and blind spots.

Alex Partridge 49:55 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 49:56 Um, in my second book, I try to identify some of them to speed up the process for us, but you may not know which ones you do.

Alex Partridge 50:04 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 50:05 So finding the blind spot is the first part. The second part is, um, once you find it, be very curious. And then the third part is be okay with it. Okay, I have this tendency, I'm going to try not to do this.

Alex Partridge 50:21 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 50:22 Oh, and by the way, my husband wasn't angry. He just remembered that he had to t- turn on our pool pump, and you know this, in the ADHD brain, pool pump pushed everything out of his brain and said, "Go turn on pool pump."

Alex Partridge 50:35 Yes. [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 50:36 Right? So he just looked at me and walked away. Um, so when you have that, just be-

Alex Partridge 50:43 Hmm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 50:43 ... understand we have a lot of glitches around communication that leave our spouses... And I think our spouses are very quick to tell us our blind spots.

Alex Partridge 50:52 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 50:53 When they do, try to be curious, try to slow down and go, "Can you help me understand? What is that?"

Alex Partridge 50:58 Hmm. Yes, approach with curiosity and not judgment.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 51:03 Yes.

Alex Partridge 51:03 I th- what do you think of 360 feedback? Because in the corporate world, this is quite a big thing. Like, entrepreneurs, founders will do this to their company. They'll send out a, essentially a feedback form to everyone within the company.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 51:17 Right.

Alex Partridge 51:17 And the people will anonymously, and that's the really key thing, that it's anonymous, will give positive and critical feedback to the, to the founder, so that founder can get like a 360 view-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 51:30 Yes

Alex Partridge 51:30 ... of their strengths and weaknesses outside of their own judgment.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 51:33 Yes.

Alex Partridge 51:34 But I've always thought that, that sounds really dangerous for someone with ADHD to do because you're gonna be exposing yourself to real, real criticisms. [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 51:43 Oh, yeah.

Alex Partridge 51:44 But there'll be, there'll be, like, s- if you're, if you're, if you can stomach that and you can push, like the benefit of that is monumental.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 51:51 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 51:51 Like, that, I think is, get... If, if you have a genuine trusted community or, or friends or family, and they can do it in a way that it's sandwiched with compliments-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 52:02 Yes

Alex Partridge 52:02 ... I think that can really expose certain a- areas of your personality that you might be completely blind to.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 52:09 Right. Uh, there's an old exercise called Johari's Window, and it's how you, you perceive yourself and how you think others perceive you.

Alex Partridge 52:19 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 52:20 And then there's a part, um, y- and your listeners can probably find a version of this online. Um, I would recommend doing it to people you trust and love.

Alex Partridge 52:29 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 52:29 Um, but then you have people fill out how they perceive you, and you see how much of it actually matches up.

Alex Partridge 52:37 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 52:38 Um, here's a quick example. I just thought I was a really nice person, and I'm going through life just being a really nice person, and I got feedback from my, um, it, this is, was when I was in higher ed, from my colleagues who are, um, professors, who called them demanding emails, D-mails.

Alex Partridge 53:02 Gosh.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 53:02 And it's just because in my hurriedness I'd be like, "Yes."

Alex Partridge 53:05 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 53:05 "No. Stop that, do this." I, I wasn't thinking of myself as impolite. Um, remember, we just talked, I, I really think I'm a nice person.

Alex Partridge 53:15 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 53:15 But they're like, "Oh, we hate getting these emails from you. They're so curt." And now I, I wasn't taking time to go, "Hi, I hope you enjoyed the sunny weekend."

Alex Partridge 53:26 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 53:26 "Period. I, I'm wondering if," la, la, la. Um, I wasn't taking that time, I was hurrying.

Alex Partridge 53:32 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 53:33 Part of my-

Alex Partridge 53:33 Sometimes you don't have time to put the niceties, to sandwich the content with-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 53:38 Exactly

Alex Partridge 53:38 ... the niceties. Like, "How are you? Hope you're well. Best wishes." You just need to get to the point-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 53:42 Right

Alex Partridge 53:42 ... but there's consequences to that.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 53:43 It, but if you understand my task-oriented ADHD-

Alex Partridge 53:47 Hmm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 53:47 ... I wanna quickly get it out of my brain before it flutters away.

Alex Partridge 53:50 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 53:51 And so here's what I do now. I type what I want to say, and then I go back and, "Hi, so and so, I hope you enjoyed the sunny weekend. Here's some things that I've been thinking."

Alex Partridge 54:05 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 54:05 Blah, blah, blah, blah. And then, "Looking forward to hearing your thoughts. Best, Tamara."

Alex Partridge 54:10 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 54:11 I have to add that in consciously, or else I'll send D-mails, demanding emails.

Alex Partridge 54:16 Yes. I think I've been guilty of that in the past as well, actually, but I'm more conscious of it now, putting in those niceties when there's time. But yeah, there's, there's that balance between, like, being efficient-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 54:25 Right

Alex Partridge 54:25 ... and also recognizing that RSD is real with the person that I'm sending the email to.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 54:31 Well, think about the irony.

Alex Partridge 54:32 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 54:32 I'm so sensitive to RSD, but I was writing D-mails.

Alex Partridge 54:35 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 54:36 Right? So I wasn't thinking how my emails were affecting neurotypicals. Most of them were neurotypical.

Alex Partridge 54:43 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 54:43 They're like, "Wow, this is... You just answer yes."

Alex Partridge 54:46 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 54:46 "You just answer no. It sounds like you're angry with us." So I was thinking about myself and trying to communicate only for myself, and I wasn't thinking about how it was being received. And I think s- a lot of times with RSD, we're only thinking about how we're receiving it.

Alex Partridge 55:04 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 55:05 And I, and I really think, I really want to impress, I, at least I try to do this for myself, is try to work outside myself. How are you experiencing this, and how am I experiencing it, without making it all about me?

Alex Partridge 55:21 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 55:22 Right?

Alex Partridge 55:23 We should make a petition to make it illegal to reply to an email with a thumbs-up emoji.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 55:28 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 55:29 Even though it might be efficient [laughs] it's gonna be very painful for the person receiving it.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 55:34 Yes. I th- well, it is, it's really difficult, um, to do e- emails my horrible, difficult thing that I have to do every day.

Alex Partridge 55:44 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 55:45 Right? Because I hate writing emails, especially when-

Alex Partridge 55:49 Hmm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 55:49 ... I have to do the, "Hope you enjoyed your day. Here's this." [laughs]

Alex Partridge 55:55 [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 55:55 You hear how much it just... I hate it as an ADHD-

Alex Partridge 55:58 Hmm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 55:58 ... person, and yet communication really demands that I do it. And yet if someone were doing it to me, I'd be hurt.

Alex Partridge 56:04 Hmm.

Alex Partridge 56:06 With communication and, and broadening the topic up a little bit about sort of supporting your, your ones nearest to you and your loved ones, if someone's listening and their partner has ADHD, how does one, and this is a big question, but how do you support your partner if they have ADHD, even if they might be frustrating sometimes? [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 56:27 Yeah. So it's funny. Um, in my second book I write about a lot of communication quirks we have.

Alex Partridge 56:32 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 56:33 And I have a cl- um, I have a person who is a professional, she's a friend, she came to my book launch. She's a professional in the ADHD world. And she said, "Tamara, I've read your book, and I guess I didn't realize I don't ask questions of other people. I just talk and do all my talking. I don't ask questions." And she said, "Do you know what's something I learned from your book?" Remember, ADHD professional. She said, "I learned to really slow down and ask questions of my spouse." And her spouse was standing right next to her and said, "Oh, is that why you were asking me about football on the way here?" And she goes, "Of course it was. I hate football." [laughs]

Alex Partridge 57:15 Hmm. [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 57:16 Um, so if you're the non-ADHD spouse-

Alex Partridge 57:19 Hmm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 57:19 ... understand we have all kinds of communication quirks. We are going to try to connect with you, and it is going to look like a toddler just starting to walk and fall.

Alex Partridge 57:31 [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 57:32 Please be kind and patient. Um, a lot of times because of our own sense of overwhelmed feelings, we'll talk about ourselves, our needs. Um, it, that can be alienating-

Alex Partridge 57:45 Hmm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 57:45 ... if you're married to that. And so please just look at us and understand. Uh, also, we can't tell a story from the beginning.

Alex Partridge 57:53 [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 57:53 We tell it from the inside out. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 57:55 And go off on seven unnecessary tangents.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 57:57 [laughs] Yeah.

Alex Partridge 57:58 And end without finishing our original point.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 58:00 Unnecessary side quests.

Alex Partridge 58:01 Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 58:03 [laughs] That's us. And so please, um, be kind and patient-

Alex Partridge 58:09 Hmm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 58:09 ... as we're trying to communicate. Know that we love you a lot, but we may not be great at, um, meeting your communication style.

Alex Partridge 58:19 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 58:19 Um-

Alex Partridge 58:19 We might forget our anniversary, but we might also buy you something about your favorite thing, that we remember. We o- we heard you say something two years ago, you mentioned a hobby, and we've bought you something and to do with that hobby because that's, that's how we show our love.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 58:34 Yes. I, if we're, we're, if we're the gift-giving kind.

Alex Partridge 58:37 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 58:39 Um, I'm a lousy gift giver, and I'm married to someone who likes gifts. Could you imagine how I go about hurting-

Alex Partridge 58:45 Hmm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 58:45 ... him all the time? 'Cause I'm like, "Here's this thing."

Alex Partridge 58:48 [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 58:49 And he's like, "Great."

Alex Partridge 58:51 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 58:52 Um, and I really try at gifts because that's his love language. But it is, it is difficult to be neurotypical married to an ADHD person. I know we're a handful. We're a handful. And I know that we're fun-

Alex Partridge 59:08 Hmm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 59:08 ... when we're fun, but I know that we're not a h- and that we're a big handful. So on behalf of my population, I apologize to you for all the cupboard doors we leave open, all the messes we leave in the middle of the cupboard, all the, a- all the messes, all the, all the, like, those casual not nice comments that might slip out of our mouth.

Alex Partridge 59:32 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 59:33 Right? So we do need patience, we do need grace.

Alex Partridge 59:37 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 59:37 Now, I am not excusing poor behavior. Poor behavior is poor behavior. So if we're cranky, even though we have ADHD, it's still up to us-

Alex Partridge 59:48 Hmm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 59:49 ... not to injure people with that.

Alex Partridge 59:51 Hmm. Oh, totally. I had, I spoke to someone recently, and they, they cheated on their husband, right? [laughs] And they said, literally they said, "I'm sorry. It wasn't me. It was my ADHD that cheated on you."

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:00:04 Oh, heck no. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 1:00:06 [laughs] That was honestly the truth. That was what I heard from someone.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:00:09 No.

Alex Partridge 1:00:09 [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:00:11 That makes me so sad.

Alex Partridge 1:00:12 I know, I know. Yeah.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:00:13 Yeah. So ADHD really, um, it's a neurological difference-

Alex Partridge 1:00:18 Hmm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:00:18 ... not a license for poor behavior.

Alex Partridge 1:00:20 Absolutely. Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:00:21 And so, you know, we're talking on-

Alex Partridge 1:00:23 Hmm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:00:23 ... how do we just survive?

Alex Partridge 1:00:25 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:00:26 We're not using it as a license for poor behavior.

Alex Partridge 1:00:29 Yeah.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:00:29 We're like, "Okay, how do I put socks and shoes on every day?"

Alex Partridge 1:00:33 Hmm. Real challenges, right? Like-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:00:35 They're real challenges

Alex Partridge 1:00:35 ... the, the, the doom pile on the floor of clothes that-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:00:38 Right

Alex Partridge 1:00:38 ... you have to kind of sniff to see if you can wear again.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:00:41 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 1:00:41 But that's some challenges, but what comes with that is, is amazing loyalty and fun and, and intuition and creativity. And if we're going on holiday with your partner and they're like, "When are we going? Next week?" And you're like, "No, we're going tonight."

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:00:58 Today.

Alex Partridge 1:00:58 [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:00:59 Well, it depends on the amount of... Oh, there's, there's a big five personality.

Alex Partridge 1:01:05 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:01:05 And one of the b- in the big five personality is the N, um, neurotic.

Alex Partridge 1:01:10 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:01:10 And neurotic doesn't, isn't a bad word, it's just how- ... intense you are. So you can be ADHD and high neurotic, um, and you can be ADHD and lower neurotic. So I have low neurotic. I just don't return emails-

Alex Partridge 1:01:27 Mm-hmm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:01:27 ... within the 24 hours expected. They can just sit in my email box longer. A high neurotic person with ADHD would have to return that email immediately.

Alex Partridge 1:01:37 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:01:38 They have that high neuroticism. So the reason I bring that up is if you're traveling with a high neurotic ADHD, and m- some of my clients have done this, they're in Paris, and their ADHD person shuts down-

Alex Partridge 1:01:50 Mm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:01:52 ... because the Paris streets are just too much. And so there's too much to do, and they're like, "I, I, I can't figure out this, I can't figure out this," and they start to get wrapped around the axle about this.

Alex Partridge 1:02:02 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:02:02 And so, um, that's an example of a high neurotic ADHD person.

Alex Partridge 1:02:07 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:02:07 And traveling will shut them down.

Alex Partridge 1:02:09 Very interesting.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:02:10 Meanwhile, you have the ADHD person who, low neurotic, is like, "Yeah, we'll figure it out."

Alex Partridge 1:02:15 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:02:16 And I have to tell you, I'm the, "Ah, we'll figure it out"-

Alex Partridge 1:02:19 [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:02:20 ... kind of person.

Alex Partridge 1:02:20 It all gets done in the end.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:02:21 Ah, it'll work out.

Alex Partridge 1:02:22 So fascinating, Tamara. Just finally,

Alex Partridge 1:02:26 I wanna go back to your ADHD item-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:02:29 Yes

Alex Partridge 1:02:29 ... which has been patiently waiting underneath this cloth. It will end up on the shelves behind us after you leave, but for now, I'm going to reveal it.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:02:37 Da-da-da.

Alex Partridge 1:02:39 That is sand. It's a sand timer, but I know-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:02:43 Okay

Alex Partridge 1:02:44 ... I'm joking.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:02:44 So imagine we're focusing on the sand in here-

Alex Partridge 1:02:47 Mm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:02:47 ... which is nice and bright and green. So I live in West Michigan, and in West Michigan, we have these beautiful beaches and glacier form sand, and it's just ground down. Wait, did you wanna ask me the question before I tell you? Sorry, [laughs] I've just started.

Alex Partridge 1:03:04 [laughs] No, no. This is perfect. You carry on. No.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:03:07 Okay.

Alex Partridge 1:03:07 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:03:08 So, um, it's ground down sand. It is this fine sand, and y- you know, there's dunes that go on for miles and miles in Michigan.

Alex Partridge 1:03:17 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:03:17 They're lovely. Um, there's, there's postcards about this. You go there, you have a lovely day at the beach, and it's fun, and then you bring that beach home with you because it's stuck to your legs.

Alex Partridge 1:03:31 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:03:31 It's stuck in your shoes. It's in your car forever.

Alex Partridge 1:03:34 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:03:34 And you find it in your bedroom. How did it even get there?

Alex Partridge 1:03:38 [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:03:38 You find it in your suitcase. The sand is everywhere.

Alex Partridge 1:03:41 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:03:42 And so my metaphor, uh, for my ADHD is it's sand. It's everywhere. It can be fun, and it's fun playing at the beach, and yet I can't just keep it at the beach. My ADHD has sand everywhere.

Alex Partridge 1:03:58 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:03:59 And so I'll be going through my house where there shouldn't be sand, and I'll feel the grit beneath my feet. And so ADHD affects every nook and cranny of our lives, and I work with clients who think they can keep their ADHD to work. I'm like, "No, no, no, sir. That is not how that works at all."

Alex Partridge 1:04:19 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:04:19 In fact, how it works is it's affecting every little part of your life.

Alex Partridge 1:04:24 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:04:25 You can't just go to the beach. No, the beach comes home with you.

Alex Partridge 1:04:29 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:04:30 And so there is sand everywhere. Um, when the sand is in a good place, it's fun, and where it doesn't belong, it's not as fun, and it gets harder.

Alex Partridge 1:04:42 Such a cool analogy. I think it's like if you don't have the tools to manage the sand right, it can end up in all the wrong places. Like, it can block your drains. It can get into the gaps in your electrics and break your iPhone.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:04:56 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 1:04:56 But if you do have a tool like a bucket, you can take that sand and, and turn it into something magnificent-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:05:01 Nice

Alex Partridge 1:05:01 ... like a huge castle-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:05:04 Right

Alex Partridge 1:05:04 ... and be amazing with it.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:05:05 Right. And, and yet it's just sand.

Alex Partridge 1:05:09 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:05:10 And so we don't wanna make more out of our ADHD than what it is. It's just sand.

Alex Partridge 1:05:16 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:05:17 And so we don't wanna create it as our personality, um, as that person you mentioned a little while ago. We don't want to create it as an excuse for our moral failings-

Alex Partridge 1:05:27 Mm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:05:28 ... right, or our character, uh, um, our lapses of character.

Alex Partridge 1:05:33 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:05:34 We want to understand I have sand.

Alex Partridge 1:05:35 Mm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:05:36 I have sand that's carried with me everywhere. And so when I get really overwhelmed at, at a project, I'm like, "Oh, there's sand, and it really doesn't belong here" But how do I work through this sand right now? How do I sweep it up just out of my way-

Alex Partridge 1:05:53 Mm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:05:53 ... so I can get to work? And so that's why my ADHD is like sand.

Alex Partridge 1:05:59 That's amazing.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:05:59 It's, it's everywhere.

Alex Partridge 1:05:59 Honestly, Tamara, that's absolutely fascinating. I'm gonna place it on the shelves behind us-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:06:04 Okay

Alex Partridge 1:06:04 ... like where all the other ADHD items-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:06:06 Right in front of the razzle dazzle?

Alex Partridge 1:06:07 ... lay. Absolutely perfect.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:06:09 All right.

Alex Partridge 1:06:10 I'm gonna try and finish the interview before the timer runs out. [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:06:12 Yeah, I know. [laughs] Timers actually make me nervous.

Alex Partridge 1:06:15 I think it's three minutes. Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:06:16 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 1:06:18 I just wanna do

Alex Partridge 1:06:19 the ADHD agony aunt section, where a member of the community sends in a woe, an ADHD woe, and it goes in the washing machine of woes. The washing machine is my ADHD item because I always, like we discussed earlier, [laughs] always leave my clothes in the machine after the cycle. But I am using the Tiimo app, which is the sponsor of the show, and since I've started using them, I'm getting a, getting better. This week in the washing machine of woes, someone has written in and asked, "I get really crazy mood swings, and I admit that I get very irritable with people. How can I be sure it's ADHD and not something more serious like bipolar disorder?"

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:06:57 Yeah.

Alex Partridge 1:06:58 Ooh, that's a tricky one.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:07:00 Ooh, I hear that. That's, you know, in my first book, I confessed I, I- this is one of the things that I was regretting when I published it the first time. Um, it was a hot July day And I had a black interior to my black car, and I got inside the car, and immediately I was angry

Alex Partridge 1:07:21 Hmm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:07:22 Why? I was hot. And beads of sweat... I was sweating. I was like, "Argh." And I was ex- explaining this experience to a neurotypical friend, and she rightly said, "What did you think would happen?" Well, when she says it like that, it seems like I'm ridiculous for being so angry

Alex Partridge 1:07:43 Hmm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:07:44 So [clears throat] I do wanna say a couple things. Um, t- to, uh, your listener who wrote that, um, sometimes we do think we have, we may have bipolar because our emotions change-

Alex Partridge 1:07:57 Mm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:07:58 ... on a dime. Um, if there's usual- there's usually an external prompting. Um, if your emotions, um, zigzag up and down quickly, it's probably ADHD

Alex Partridge 1:08:14 Hmm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:08:15 Um, if it's more of a roll where you have three days of really bad, um, intense energy, um, you may, you may look at a different diagnosis. Um, but the emotional dysregulation, that's part of, that's part of the joy of ADHD

Alex Partridge 1:08:32 Hmm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:08:32 So medication can help you. Um, managing your environment can help you. Um, and really taking on new behaviors can also help you. So, um, medication, uh, really can help us manage our moods so that we're, they're not as extreme. And I want to caution your listener, um, just understand how your moods affect relationships

Alex Partridge 1:08:58 Hmm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:08:59 Um, it's probably really hard on people who live with you or around you. So that's not, I'm not saying that to add guilt, certainly not-

Alex Partridge 1:09:09 Hmm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:09:09 ... but this is definitely worth going after. Um, yeah, you could find an ADHD coach to help you with emotional regulation. Um, but emotional regulation is the name of the game

Alex Partridge 1:09:23 Hmm. Thank you, Tamara. That was absolutely insightful. Just finally, before we finish, I want to deliver you a letter from the previous guest. Every week, my guest writes three rules to live by, and they put it in that post office-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:09:38 Awesome

Alex Partridge 1:09:38 ... and I deliver the last letter to my current guest. There we go, Tamara

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:09:44 Three rules to live by. Be generous to family and friends. Be organized, makes everything easier. And turn the hob off

Alex Partridge 1:09:56 That is lifesaving, the last one could be. The middle one

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:09:59 What is that?

Alex Partridge 1:10:00 Turn the hob, like h- like a kitchen hob, like a stove

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:10:04 Oh, okay

Alex Partridge 1:10:05 Yeah. The last one could [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:10:06 [laughs] I-

Alex Partridge 1:10:06 You know, that's, that's, that's more like a-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:10:07 I didn't know what that was

Alex Partridge 1:10:08 ... it's more like a health and safety bit of advice, isn't it really?

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:10:10 Oh, yes. Yes

Alex Partridge 1:10:12 Yeah

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:10:12 Yeah

Alex Partridge 1:10:12 But the, the third, the s- the middle one, I can't remember who wrote... The middle one's quite, like, just get organized. That's, that's easier said than done, isn't it?

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:10:19 Well, being organized makes everything easier. Um, you know what, though? That is the truth.

Alex Partridge 1:10:26 Yeah

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:10:27 Uh, do you kind of bristle against it?

Alex Partridge 1:10:31 Well, I just think that might be easier said than done. I'm organ-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:10:34 Oh, uh, clearly

Alex Partridge 1:10:34 I... How does one just get organized, I think? Well, I, I, I help, I have big whiteboards which help me, and the, and the, the wristbands, for example

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:10:46 Right

Alex Partridge 1:10:46 But I think, I guess everyone will find their own path to whatever works for them

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:10:50 Okay, this is correct. Being organized makes everything easier. That is absolutely correct, but you had kind of an emotional reaction to go, "If it were that easy"

Alex Partridge 1:11:00 Hmm. I mean, that's one of the biggest challenges with ADHD, right? It's like, that's part of the condition, is-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:11:07 Right

Alex Partridge 1:11:07 ... we really struggle with. So it's like, just, just f- fix that part of it

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:11:11 So what if we just change this rule a little bit?

Alex Partridge 1:11:14 Hmm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:11:15 Be organized where you need to be-

Alex Partridge 1:11:18 Hmm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:11:19 ... it will make your life easier

Alex Partridge 1:11:21 Yes. Yeah

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:11:22 Does that feel more palatable to you?

Alex Partridge 1:11:24 Yeah, I like that

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:11:25 It does, doesn't it?

Alex Partridge 1:11:26 [laughs] Or maybe, like, put things in place that will help you get organized. Like, work on experimentation to see which hacks do and don't work for you, that would, would, would-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:11:39 Yeah

Alex Partridge 1:11:39 ... nudge you in a more organized, into a more organized lifestyle

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:11:45 Yeah. So there are areas of my life that can be disorganized

Alex Partridge 1:11:49 Hmm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:11:49 My, my pantry at home, it's disorganized

Alex Partridge 1:11:53 Hmm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:11:54 You know?

Alex Partridge 1:11:54 That doesn't need to be organized, you would say?

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:11:57 For me, no. My, my writing needs to be organized. So I, I look at it this way. I only have so many organization points in life.

Alex Partridge 1:12:08 Hmm.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:12:08 I can't spend them all on my food pantry. That would be ridiculous. I can't spend them on my car either. [laughs]

Alex Partridge 1:12:16 [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:12:16 So the best I can do with my car is to keep trash out and call that organized

Alex Partridge 1:12:21 Hmm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:12:22 But if I had, have only so many points, ADHD, in ADHD land, I'm, I'm going to spend tho- spend those points for my schedule, keeping my calendar organized, keeping, uh, my writing organized-

Alex Partridge 1:12:36 Hmm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:12:36 ... trying to keep my email organized. So is that more palatable?

Alex Partridge 1:12:42 Yeah, absolutely. I guess like with ADHD, it's your, the compartments in your head need to be protected more than a neurotypical

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:12:50 Yeah

Alex Partridge 1:12:50 Right? Obviously, energy is finite with everyone, but with us, it is s- needs to be more protected, so we have to really be careful with where we put that energy. [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:12:58 Right. Well, when you heard, "Be organized"-

Alex Partridge 1:13:01 [laughs]

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:13:02 ... you're like, "Bridge too far. Bridge too far, because I can't be organized everywhere"

Alex Partridge 1:13:08 Hmm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:13:09 And we generalize, this is an ADHD thinking moment, we generalize to the, oh, sh- this person means be organized and absolutely everywhere

Alex Partridge 1:13:18 Hmm

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:13:19 And we don't know if that's what this writer meant, but that's how we took it

Alex Partridge 1:13:24 Yeah, yeah. No, it's interesting. I think with organized... 'Cause my flat is really disorganized. I'll walk through my front door and trip over a suitcase from a holiday I went on two years ago, literally

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:13:35 [laughs]

Alex Partridge 1:13:36 And there is clothes everywhere. It's a mess

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:13:38 Right

Alex Partridge 1:13:38 I mean, almost quite shameful to have people over. But other areas of my life, like this podcast, things that mean something to me-

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:13:45 Right

Alex Partridge 1:13:45 ... couldn't be more organized. I guess it's about identifying what matters to you and, and then putting attention to that thing

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:13:53 Yeah, putting all your organization points in strategic places [laughs]

Alex Partridge 1:13:57 [laughs] Tamara, this has been absolutely fascinating. As I said at the beginning, to have you here in the UK, in the studio, um, totally surreal, and I can't say thank you enough.

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:14:08 Oh

Alex Partridge 1:14:08 Thank you so much for your wisdom

Dr. Tamara Rosier 1:14:10 I loved being here. You are fantastic, so thank you so much. [outro music]