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BigDeal by Codie SanchezBigDeal by Codie Sanchez

Manipulation Expert: Success Isn’t Luck, It’s Rigged | Robert Greene

My new book Own Or Be Owned is out now! I wrote Own or Be Owned to answer one question: How do you make more money, less miserably?

Robert GreeneguestGreat Minds Codie Sanchezhost
Apr 16, 20251h 18mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 3:08

    Understanding Power Dynamics in Business

    1. RG

      I don't want you to crush your enemy totally. I want you to be aware that that happens in business all the time.

    2. CS

      I have wanted to interview this man for years. He is one of my favorite authors of all time. He wrote 48 Laws of Power.

    3. RG

      At this very moment, there are vultures circling around who are gonna buy your business out and crush you. It's a merciless environment. And what that signals is you're weak, we can play you, and the next time around, we're gonna negotiate the hell out of you. I don't want you to be like that. I want you to be au-

    4. CS

      What do you think is the most underrated human truth that a young person should know who wants control or power?

    5. RG

      The most important skill that you can have is-

    6. CS

      Wow. Is there something that you do when you are feeling absolutely no way you can write?

    7. RG

      Well, you know, it's almost a question that makes me wanna cry. I'm so sorry.

    8. CS

      This is the Big Deal Podcast, and I'm Codie Sanchez. I am so excited, you guys. I have wanted to interview this man for years. He is one of my favorite authors of all time. I even embarrassingly told him that today. And if you, like me, wanna understand power, you wanna understand, how do you seduce someone? You wanna understand, how do I get my way? You wanna understand, why is it that this person isn't doing what I want them to do? Are these people actually out to get me? What is the truth of the situation that no one will tell me? Robert Greene, I think, is one of the few people in the world that will tell you the truth. He wrote the very famous book, 48 Laws of Power, which he gave me a, a copy of right here. He's actually written seven books, um, that have sold millions of copies, all about this idea overarching of, how do we communicate, and how does power exist? We talk about human nature through the decades and centuries, the things that are true consistently, what to do in order to not be anti-seductive, and what a young person should know that no one else will tell you. I hope you enjoy this conversation with Robert Greene as much as I did. I hope you tell me in the comments how I did, 'cause I was very nervous, and I didn't sleep last night thinking about this interview. And hopefully you give it a ton of views, likes, shares, and you subscribe so that I can have him back, because I have about 452 other questions for him. So if you have questions for Robert too, put them down below. I promise you, next time we'll go even deeper. Without further ado, the one, the only, Robert Greene. Do you think best when you write or when you speak or when you read?

    9. RG

      Um, wow. I mean, uh, when I'm reading, I'm, I'm doing a lot of thinking, and I have a very active way of reading. I, uh, I take notes, and I write in the book, in the margins of the book. And if I don't like a book, which happens every now and then, I'm, like, crossing everything out, and I'm writing F you on the margin stuff.

    10. CS

      [laughs] No.

    11. RG

      I argue, and I talk with the book as I write it. But, um, you know, uh, when I'm talking, um, sometimes I don't feel like I'm bringing my ideas as clearly as I'd like to,

  2. 3:08 – 6:13

    The Art of Writing and Communication

    1. RG

      so I really think best through the form of writing.

    2. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RG

      But, um, I've always handwritten my first drafts.

    4. CS

      Wow.

    5. RG

      Um, now I can only hand write 'cause I can't type. I used to be a very fast typist. Now I can't 'cause of my stroke. So, um, I hand write, and there's something about... 'Cause, you know, you're, you're younger. People who are younger, they don't even know what handwriting is anymore.

    6. CS

      Yep.

    7. RG

      It's, it's like something that, you know, from, from thousands of years ago for as far as they're concerned. But when you hand write, it's a different feeling than when you type.

    8. CS

      Right.

    9. RG

      There's more of a direct connection between the hand and the brain than the computer. So I feel like when I'm writing, I'm kind of scratching on the page something that's in my ear that I'm hearing. It's getting a little bit hard to describe right now, but I'm actually going through that as I'm writing this chapter at home, which I'll be returning to when I leave here.

    10. CS

      I love that. I actu- I, I feel similarly. I, um, I think best when writing.

    11. RG

      Yeah.

    12. CS

      And that ability to... Yeah, it's almost like a emotional transfer via the pen is hard. You, I mean, you could type hard on the keyboard, but you can't get outside of the lines, right?

    13. RG

      Right.

    14. CS

      There's some, like, sort of structural process to it that you're bound by within the computer.

    15. RG

      Yeah.

    16. CS

      Whereas with a pen, you get to, this is your sword. You get to do with it as you will. It can't really constrain you.

    17. RG

      Yeah.

    18. CS

      And I always liked that same s- same thing. You know, it, it's funny because the last time I reread, uh, your very first book, um, 48 Laws of Power, it was, uh, on the computer, or I guess on the iPad, and so I forgot about the-

    19. RG

      Yeah, I don't know-

    20. CS

      ... the margins

    21. RG

      ... if the iPad, um, or the e-book, I don't think they do include the-

    22. CS

      They don't

    23. RG

      ... they couldn't.

    24. CS

      Yeah.

    25. RG

      So.

    26. CS

      But this is so magical. It's actually astounding more people don't copy you in this age of everybody copying everything with this really signature margin you have, that it does almost feel like I'm talking somehow-

    27. RG

      Yeah

    28. CS

      ... to you, and this is your personal book.

    29. RG

      Yeah.

    30. CS

      How did you come up with that idea?

  3. 6:13 – 9:06

    The Importance of Marginal Notes

    1. RG

      but I can't incorporate them in what I'm writing. I wanna have several voices going on at the same time. So each of the material on the margins, which are quotes from books, they're fables, they're all- they're, they're from all different sources. They're like a conversation that is happening with what I'm writing. I'm, like, commenting on it through them. So there'll be a famous fable from, um, from the ancient Greek writer, Aesop's Fables, that explains in a kind of very elemental, almost childlike way, a story about power, and it relates directly to what I've written there. I just find that a very powerful form of writing, right?

    2. CS

      Yeah, and it sticks with you.

    3. RG

      For, yeah.

    4. CS

      It does. Yeah, there was one of them, you just handed me this beautiful version of the book, uh, in its 25th anniversary edition. Is that what this is?

    5. RG

      It is... Well, it was 2023 was the 25th anniversary. God, we're already in 2025.

    6. CS

      I know.

    7. RG

      So it came out a year and a half ago.

    8. CS

      We are getting old. And there's this one, I was gonna start somewhere else, but I wanna start here.

    9. RG

      Yeah.

    10. CS

      Uh, a story about Kissinger-

    11. RG

      Yeah

    12. CS

      ... that involved a report that Winston Lord had worked on for days, and after giving it to Kissinger, he got it back with a notation, "Is this the best you can do?"

    13. RG

      Right.

    14. CS

      Lord rewrote and polished and finally resubmitted and came back with the same curt question. And after drafting it one more time, once again getting the same question from Kissinger, the Lord snapped, "Damn it, yes, it's the best I can do." To which Kissin- Kissinger replied, "Fine, then I guess I'll read it this time."

    15. RG

      [laughs] Yeah. Yeah.

    16. CS

      What-

    17. RG

      Yeah

    18. CS

      ... what are you imparting with that story?

    19. RG

      Well, um, sometimes the best kind of communication isn't necessarily direct. So if I tell you exactly what I want, Codie, in some report or anything, you might get a little bit rebellious. You might go, "Hmm, I, I thought I'd written it perfectly," you know? If I tell you exactly what to do, you're gonna be just mimicking me or something. But if you signal to somebody else that what they wrote may not be quite right, it makes them think, right? Instead if I just criticize directly and they get all emotional and all upset, and you say something directly about what you didn't like, if you just say, "Is that the best you can do?" it makes the other person go, "Hmm, no, maybe I can make it better," right? It's a form of communication that's very powerful, and I'm very interested in that because we're, we're people who are too verbal. We tell people exactly what we think, exactly what we want. We give instructions to people. But if you can be clever, and you can kind of indicate, and you can kind of send them in a certain direction, it's a much more powerful form of communication. Kissinger was kind of a master of that.

    20. CS

      Yeah. It's an incredible story. You know, um, I

  4. 9:06 – 12:08

    Navigating Workplace Politics

    1. CS

      was pushed out of two companies before.

    2. RG

      No.

    3. CS

      And both times it's because I violated rule number one.

    4. RG

      Oh, b- well, I have... Believe me, I violated it several times before I wrote the book.

    5. CS

      Interesting. So the first rule-

    6. RG

      So what happened? Tell me what happened.

    7. CS

      Well, the first rule is never outshine-

    8. RG

      Yes

    9. CS

      ... the master, right? And, um, and both times, I, almost like a small child with a painting that, you know, you hand-drew to give to the parent-

    10. RG

      Uh-huh

    11. CS

      ... I kind of, you know, won an award, grew a business line for another business, and brought it, like this little excitable child, to the, the larger partner at both firms that I was working at at the time.

    12. RG

      What kind of firms are these?

    13. CS

      Finance firms.

    14. RG

      Okay.

    15. CS

      Private equity. And, uh, and basically thought that this was me showing what I'd learned and how smart I was to this person.

    16. RG

      Yeah.

    17. CS

      And isn't this great? And look at what we're doing. And quickly realized, oh, they wanted to be on the cover and not me.

    18. RG

      Uh-huh.

    19. CS

      And me taking that, I should have instead brought it to them and said, "You should be on here"-

    20. RG

      Yeah

    21. CS

      ... as opposed to taking it for myself.

    22. RG

      Yeah.

    23. CS

      And so it took me literally two go rounds until I finally realized-

    24. RG

      Well, what happened?

    25. CS

      ... my mistake.

    26. RG

      Did they fire you or?

    27. CS

      Well, no, both times it was more subversive, to your point. It was-

    28. RG

      Yeah

    29. CS

      ... um, you know, little workarounds and, you know, let's put resources to this company and not Codie's segment of the company.

    30. RG

      I see. Yeah, exactly.

  5. 12:08 – 14:57

    The Role of Ego in Professional Success

    1. RG

      through your research. I was by far the best one. I had, like, well over 30, where the next person had, like, 10 or so, right? And I thought I was just doing fantastic, and then I was fired. And I was fired because in a meeting, the, um, that person above me was thinking, "Robert has an attitude. He's not listening. He's not being respectful." So she started, she started laying into me again and again and again till she finally fired me. I didn't understand that it wasn't about researching hard and coming up with the best material. It was about playing the game the way she would, making her look better and not me look better.

    2. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RG

      I learned the hard way, and so I want other people to understand it's okay to have ideals. I don't want to make you all cynical, but you have to be realistic. You have to understand that the people you work for have an ego, and you have to feed their ego and not violate it and not make them feel insecure.

    4. CS

      It's so true, and I think it's hard for people to take that in because like you said, it's almost like you're violating rule number one to the masses-

    5. RG

      Yeah

    6. CS

      ... by exposing the fact [laughs] that, uh, we don't talk about this, and yet it's true.

    7. RG

      Yeah.

    8. CS

      And so I know you got a ton of bush- pushback when you came out with this first book. I also saw it, I was going back through old articles with Seduction too.

    9. RG

      [coughs]

    10. CS

      The same thing. You kinda said the quiet part out loud, and, and I was wondering, do, what... When you're young, what percentage of people do you think actually realize that there is this undercurrent of how reality works that is true? Like, is this something normal for people to understand now, 25 years later, after you wrote this book, or do people still not understand that being direct isn't always gonna get you what you want?

    11. RG

      It's, um, you know, I, I, if I had to put a percentage on it, and I've thought about this, and it's not scientific, I, by no means, I think about 5% of people actually understand these laws intuitively.

    12. CS

      Wow.

    13. RG

      And I can't explain why. I don't think it's genetic. It's just there's something to it where they understand, for instance, always say less than necessary, law number four. They understand that if they talk less, they're not gonna say something stupid, and people are gonna look at them as if, hmm, they have an aura of mystery and they're powerful. They know that. They don't need to read Robert's book. They understand. It's in their DNA, and they're people who generally, you know, get very far in life, okay? And they can often be a little bit more amoral and unethical, you know, than the rest of us. But, um, s- the majority, the 95% of us, we, we don't know these things, right? Because some of them are, seem counterintuitive.

    14. CS

      Mm-hmm.

  6. 14:57 – 17:50

    Recognizing Toxic Influences

    1. RG

      Uh, one law that people have actually criticized me a lot for, I think it's number 10, is infection, avoid the unlucky and the unfortunate. And they assume that I'm saying just avoid people who've had bad luck or who are victims, and it's not at all what I wrote, and you have to read the chapter to understand. But the idea is sometimes people enter your life and they're all dramatic and they're very charismatic and they have all these stories to tell, and usually the stories ab- are about how somebody did something terrible to them. They're the victim, right? There's all this drama surrounding their lives, and it seems kind of interesting, and you become their friend, right? And slowly, slowly, you get embroiled in all of their drama. They have arguments with you. They turn against you. Then they reconcile, and you find yourself getting infected with their ugly energy, and down and down and down you go. It's counterintuitive to think that somebody who's super dramatic is actually masking... They're creating the drama that, that, that is surrounding them. We don't think that way, and I'm trying to show that you have to be a little bit wary about people. You can't just take them at face value.

    2. CS

      Well, you know, you've had-

    3. RG

      You're shaking your head like you've had that experience.

    4. CS

      Oh, yeah. For sure.

    5. RG

      Okay.

    6. CS

      I mean-

    7. RG

      Or not a good one

    8. CS

      ... not only have I had the experience, I've... Well, there's a lot of data that supports it, right? You know, there's data now that shows... I, I saw a study done on 1,000 companies where if you sit within a 25 square foot radius of somebody who's considered a high performer, you're 15% more likely-

    9. RG

      Sure

    10. CS

      ... to outperform, and if you sit next to a low performer, you are 30% more likely to underperform.

    11. RG

      Yeah, yeah.

    12. CS

      And so, you know, there's actually even just a, a more aggressive downside to those who are negative or infectious-

    13. RG

      Yeah

    14. CS

      ... in that way.

    15. RG

      Yeah.

    16. CS

      And I was wondering, when, when you start researching this, where do you think, where is the data the most important and where is history most important? Because in all of your works, it seems like there's an interweaving of the two. You know, there's a throwback to Churchill and a story about World War II, and then there's also the scientific data that we cover about findings and studies that show-

    17. RG

      Right

    18. CS

      ... uh, the reality.

    19. RG

      Well, back when I wrote The 48 Laws of Power, there wasn't really the internet, and the studies about power, uh, if you can do studies about power and have data, weren't very, there weren't very many of them, right? So I had to go through a pretty intensive research process, hundreds of books, reading all about the most famous people, you know, like a Kissinger, and that was my form of data.

    20. CS

      Yeah.

    21. RG

      So when I read all these stories of very powerful people,

  7. 17:50 – 21:12

    The Interplay of History and Human Nature

    1. RG

      kings, queens, courtesans, biz- financiers, you know, the whole slew of them, I'd see trends, and that trend would signal to me a reality about human nature.

    2. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RG

      So the two are, are interwoven. My research and my going through history was the evidence, was the scientific material that I based it on, as well as my own experience.

    4. CS

      Mm.

    5. RG

      So, um, I ha- you know, I've said it before, but I- Prior to writing The 48 Laws of Power, I was not a successful person, I have to admit. I had fif- at least 50, 60 different jobs. My wife and I once counted, and we went back, and I think there's even more that I forgot. And I had so many bad bosses, so many people who were so political, so stupid, so incompetent, not all of them, of course, that I had all of this material, right? I had stored up all of these stories in my blood about these people who were so manipulative, and I had studied them, and I, and I had the pain inside of me of having made these mistakes. So the book is a combination of my own kind of personal pain about the work world. It's not all bad. There were some great things, too. My own personal pain and this deep level of research. So if I found a story from 3,000 years ago from ancient China that revealed something about one of the laws, and I saw something in the 1970s, I go, "Well, there's something very true, very real about it. There's something deep in human nature that, that confirms this particular law." So does that answer your question?

    6. CS

      Yeah.

    7. RG

      All right.

    8. CS

      Yeah. It's, it's, you're almost like an anthropologist in a way, kind of going back through-

    9. RG

      Yeah

    10. CS

      ... human nature over the decades.

    11. RG

      Yeah.

    12. CS

      Well, over the centuries. What about, um, do you think, do you think that those who are maybe how they would be labeled today, narcissists or sociopaths or dark triad, are they the type of people that understand this undercurrent of humanity better than a normal person? A quote, unquote, I don't even know what a normal person is. But do the darker aspects or, or avatars of human nature, do they understand these laws more than a normal person?

    13. RG

      The, the, I made that comment earlier that there, that some of that 5% may be people who are, who are what you're, you're talking about. I don't think all of them are. I don't think everybody who's really good at power and has a good feel for it-

    14. CS

      Mm

    15. RG

      ... has these dark qualities. It's a mix of things. But, um, there's a very fam- there's not a fa- there's a man, um, uh, who's quite well known on the internet about 15 years ago, I don't know where he is now, named Sam Vaknin. I don't know if you've heard of him.

    16. CS

      Mm-mm.

    17. RG

      Sam Vaknin w- admitted that he was an incredible narcissist, a very dangerous, dark narcissist who manipulated people terribly. And he came to a point where he saw this about himself, and he realized he can't control it. "This is who I am, but I'm gonna educate everybody about what narcissism is." And he's very brilliant, and his self-analysis is extremely accurate. But the thing is, he's very rare. So people who are like this, they don't

  8. 21:12 – 24:04

    The Nature of Authenticity

    1. RG

      think that they're narcissists. They don't think that they're evil. They don't think that what they're doing is manipulative or they're even operating by laws. These are just things that come naturally to them.

    2. CS

      Mm.

    3. RG

      So, you know, that makes it easier for them to, to do the things that they do, right? So, um, you know, and so not all of us, I don't wanna imply that in doing this book, you're gonna turn into a narcissist.

    4. CS

      Right.

    5. RG

      You're gonna turn i- you're gonna have to have these very dark qualities, you know? It's just that you wanna be aware of them. So these other people, they're not aware that they're behaving this way. I don't want you to crush your enemy totally. I want you to be aware that that happens in business all the time, and not be naive with your company that you've, uh, as an entrepreneur, this business that you created. At this very moment, there are vultures circling around who are gonna buy your business out and crush you, because that's how business works, right?

    6. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    7. RG

      It's a merciless environment.

    8. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    9. RG

      I don't want you to be like that. I want you to be aware of it. I want you to be aware that there are people like that out there. That is sort of the point of the book.

    10. CS

      One of the lines, I don't think it's a law, per se, and I can't remember which one it was related to, that I go back to often, is, uh, Sun Tzu's give them a golden bridge, uh, give them a golden bridge on which to retreat.

    11. RG

      Uh-huh.

    12. CS

      And I can't tell you how many times I've used, in deals and in business, the opposite of what you just said, which is crush your opponent, uh, which would be like a positive aspect from this book and persuasion, which is actually, for your enemy, let them look like they have a win. And that's like a beautiful way to actually do the opposite of what you've said.

    13. RG

      Uh.

    14. CS

      And I've gotten out of many a, a deal because of you, actually.

    15. RG

      Uh-huh.

    16. CS

      I owe you some checks.

    17. RG

      Really?

    18. CS

      Yeah. [laughs]

    19. RG

      Now, how, how are you applying that? I'm not quite sure I understand.

    20. CS

      So, like, for instance, um, we had a deal that, uh, we wanted to close, and the guy had committed a little fraud. [laughs] He had done a few things inside of the business.

    21. RG

      On your side or the other side?

    22. CS

      On the other side.

    23. RG

      Yeah.

    24. CS

      So we had done a transaction. They had said a bunch of things on paper were X and Y and Z, and then once we had dug in, we were like, "Ooh, that's not correct."

    25. RG

      Yeah.

    26. CS

      So whether it was, you know, that they'd realized it or had written the numbers incorrectly, who could tell? Um, and one side of us wanted to do, you know, we wanted to go do a lawsuit. So one of my partners was like, "Well, we have them. This is incorrect. We could own way more of the company. Let's go after them." But instead of doing that, we kind of said, "Ooh, we think there was a miss-up, a mess-up in these numbers, and, and somebody wrote it incorrectly, and it's not a big deal. We can work around this. We've gotta change the math a little bit on how much of the company we get, but, um, you know, actually, I think we can just change this number. You guys can walk away. We can walk away." And so we gave them this kind of golden bridge on which to retreat. We could have sued them.

    27. RG

      You mean you, you, you cut off the deal?

  9. 24:04 – 27:09

    The Subtlety of Seduction and Deception

    1. CS

      Yeah. We, we kept the company and kept some economics, but let them walk away without a lawsuit.

    2. RG

      Uh-huh.

    3. CS

      And that I don't-

    4. RG

      You mean you were buying them out?

    5. CS

      Yeah.

    6. RG

      Uh-huh.

    7. CS

      And I think a lot of your book, people talk about the manipulative nature of it, but I don't think that's always the case.

    8. RG

      No, no, definitely not. Definitely not.

    9. CS

      There's a lot of really beautiful aspects of the book that are-

    10. RG

      Yes

    11. CS

      ... so relevant to business.

    12. RG

      Yeah. I mean, um, if you're alienating everybody, if you're crushing all of these people, if you're just having lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit, there, there'll be a, a, a bounce back effect where you won't have many allies next time you're in trouble, right?

    13. CS

      Yeah.

    14. RG

      People will resent you. You'll have more enemies on the horizon. And when you slip up in this media crazy era, all those enemies will suddenly come out of the woodwork, and they'll be on social media.

    15. CS

      Yeah.

    16. RG

      And, you know, you- the mobs will come after you, and you'll suffer for it.

    17. CS

      Mm.

    18. RG

      So there's an aspect of power where you have to play the soft game.

    19. CS

      Mm.

    20. RG

      Where you have to please as many people as possible, make allies, make them think that they're doing what they want, but in fact, they're doing what you want, which is the art of seduction itself, you know? And so, you know, that is a, that's a huge part of the power game. It's not all about ... It's, it's not a book about being aggressive and violent and pushing people around. It's the opposite.

    21. CS

      Mm.

    22. RG

      It's giving the impression that you're a nice, generous person, but that somehow you get people to kind of do what you want through being clever.

    23. CS

      Mm. For young people today who maybe are not even gonna be able to get through this whole book or Persuasion, given attention spans, what do you think is the most underrated human truth that a young person should know who wants control or power?

    24. RG

      Well, um, you know, it's, it's a good question. I mean, um, there's many as- You mean like a particular law of power or ...

    25. CS

      Could be, or it could be something that sits with you that you're like, "Hmm, I wanna talk about this more. I think young people should think about this more."

    26. RG

      Well, okay. Well, what, what I would say is, um, the most important skill that you can have in, in the work world, in the business world, and in life, is l- knowing how to observe people and not be so wrapped up in yourself and be outer-directed.

    27. CS

      Mm.

    28. RG

      So when you're in a situation like you've entered a job for the first time, your tendency is to be all insecure and think, "Did I say the wrong thing? Am I doing it? Am I dressing correctly? Am I fitting in?" And you're not observing. You're thinking about yourself.

    29. CS

      Mm.

    30. RG

      Right? And the whole game is to be observing. It's like you're observing the, the world, the, the different games that are going on, what people are doing, what they're like, what their tastes are like, what the boss is like. There are all these levels of power going on.

  10. 27:09 – 29:46

    Observing Human Behavior

    1. RG

      jobs that I had. I wasn't necessarily the best, uh, person at figuring out the game, but I was very observant about people and their nature and their flaws and such. If you become an astute observer of the people around you, you will have this, the game will be much easier to, to manage, right? You will know this is a person who is insecure. I cannot offend them. I cannot say the right, the wrong thing to them. This is a person who's strong and secure. I wanna be with them. I want them to mentor me. They, they can ... You know? You wanna be able to take criticism from other people.

    2. CS

      Mm.

    3. RG

      In other words, be less insecure and be more kind of outer motivated and paying attention to the people around you.

    4. CS

      And so it sounds like sort of half the battle is sort of naming what other people are. So saying like, "Oh, this, this happened. Robert did this thing, which tells me he cares about how he's perceived. Perception and relevance is important to, to Robert," so I'm gonna name a person like that.

    5. RG

      Right. Right.

    6. CS

      And so often when you're young, you're just thinking, "I, I, I, me, me, me."

    7. RG

      Right.

    8. CS

      You don't even know to name another.

    9. RG

      Right.

    10. CS

      Interesting.

    11. RG

      Well, the thing also that you wanna, uh, understand is everything is a sign. So when you're observing, f- w- another thing is enjoy this aspect of it because it's actually a lot of fun. It's like watching a movie and observing people and understanding them, but everything people do is a sign. So if they're showing up late at meetings or they're not returning your phone calls, it's not some innocent event. It means something. It's coming from some place within them. They're telling you something about themselves indirectly. If their desk is a mess, right, they can't organize their desk, it's a sign of something else going on inside them.

    12. CS

      Mm.

    13. RG

      Right? If they c- if they're not returning your phone calls, on and on and on. Every little thing that people do ... I, sometimes when I read an email, I can sense that there's a little bit of anger as an undertone. You can sense people's tone, not just in what they say, but in how they write something, right? There's a lack ... There's not this usual kind of polite tone. There's a little bit of a sharpness. There's a word or two that indicates that they're upset, they're angry. Every little thing that people do is a sign. You're not paranoid, 'cause it's actually a lot of fun, and you're decoding what's going on. 'Cause people wear masks. They smile and they say, "I love your ideas, Codie. You're brilliant. You're wonderful," but inside they're thinking something else. And you have to be able to pick up all of these signs.

    14. CS

      Yeah. It seems like a lot of us have

  11. 29:46 – 33:13

    The Complexity of Authenticity

    1. CS

      lost a lot of that gut intuition. Like, we don't, we're told to not trust your first instinct.

    2. RG

      Yeah.

    3. CS

      You know, we're told to not cross the street when we feel a certain way, 'cause that could be rude to somebody else. We're sort of continuously being told to mask this feeling we get in our gut. How do you reopen that again? Like, if you're sitting in a room with a bunch of people in the workplace and you're trying to figure out how to play this game, what is the mental game Robert plays to sort of pick up these undercurrents that somebody might not be able to see?

    4. RG

      Well, um, I wrote a book called The Laws of Human Nature. It's sort of my last book, and I have a very long chapter in there about non-verbal communication, and it's extremely important skill to develop. And what that means is people, um, can say anything they want to with words.

    5. CS

      Mm.

    6. RG

      In fact, they generally do. They never really exactly say what's on their mind.

    7. CS

      Mm.

    8. RG

      That's how it is in the social world. 'Cause if you said what was exactly on your mind, you would be offending a lot of people, right? So we don't ever really say exactly what we feel, but our body language does not lie.

    9. CS

      Mm.

    10. RG

      It's very difficult to lie with your body language. Even the finest actors in the world find it very difficult to lie with their voice 'cause the voice reveals people's feelings, right? So you wanna be observant. We're very good at picking these kind of cues up, so you may not realize it, but you sense that something is wrong about this person that you've just met. This is something that in the, I talk a lot about it in The Art of Seduction. I've dealt with, with women who've written me back. They had a gut feeling that this man that they met was wrong. There was something bad about him. They got a bad feeling from it. But what happens is you don't trust that feeling.

    11. CS

      Right.

    12. RG

      And then, 'cause you're not, and as you say, in our culture, it's not something that we value, and then we go on, we have a relationship, and then we find the hard way out that our original gut instinct was the correct one. So you wanna trust these feelings. They're very valuable. We are animals. We think we're all so intellectual. We've got our, our frontal cortex that governs everything, but inside we operate on emotions, on instincts, on feelings, on sensations. It's a non-verbal form of communication. It comes out in people's gestures and how they move, how they stand, right?

    13. CS

      Mm.

    14. RG

      You're, they're at a party, you're talking to them, but their feet are pointing in a different direction. They're not so interested in you. Their eyes reveal if they're really listening to you or not. A real smile lights up the whole face. A fake smile's all kind of tight and...

    15. CS

      [laughs]

    16. RG

      That's wonderful. I really like... Right?

    17. CS

      Yeah.

    18. RG

      On and on and on. It's this insane language. You can understand exactly what people are thinking, but you have to, to do this, to be able to reach this kind of level of understanding, you have to shut off your own mind, and you have to shut off all your internal chatter, and you have to observe, and you have to see, you know, exactly what, try and read and detect what that particular sign means.

    19. CS

      Mm.

    20. RG

      And you won't believe how often you are very accurate with it. You can detect people's resentment, people's envy. And I ha- I, as I said, I wrote a whole chapter about

  12. 33:13 – 41:10

    The Role of Storytelling in Influence

    1. RG

      signs that you can look at, at tomorrow and learned about this language. It's just that you're not paying attention, and you don't value this form because we're so verbal. We think everything has to do with words, but it doesn't.

    2. CS

      Yeah. You know, you've said seduction is a form of deception, but people want to be led astray.

    3. RG

      Yeah.

    4. CS

      What do you mean by that?

    5. RG

      Well, um, when you're a child, um, you, you were kind of really interested in stories, right? We're all, and we still are interested in stories, but what you like about stories from a very early age is the fact that a writer is leading you in a certain direction, but you don't know where they're going, where they're taking you, right?

    6. CS

      Yeah.

    7. RG

      And you want to be led, and they're creating an illusion, and they're taking you along this journey, okay? And so they're seducing you through a story. And you can call it lies, you can call it fantasy, you can call it illusion, but reality is kind of harsh. It's kind of difficult, and we all want more pleasure in our life.

    8. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    9. RG

      That's why we go and see movies. That's why Hollywood is so successful. We wanna be taken out of our day-to-day lives. We wanna be led. We actually want to be deceived. We want illusion. We want fantasy. We want pleasure. And so you wanna be the person that's supplying that fantasy, that's giving people that pleasure because if you do, it gives you a lot of power, right?

    10. CS

      Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's, it's so true, and yet not said ever, which I feel like is a consistent thread through all of your books. It's where's the quiet part that we can say out loud that we shouldn't say out loud-

    11. RG

      Right

    12. CS

      ... in every single segment of our life, which I love. And it also, another line of yours that I love is, "When you meet a swordsman, draw your sword. Do not recite poetry to one who is not a poet."

    13. RG

      Yeah, those aren't my words. That's, that's somebody else's. But, um, yeah, it's, um, you've gotta know the people that you're dealing with, right? And, um, you have to understand, as you said, you're naming these people, which is y- the way you put it, which is a very good way of putting it. Um, and some people are, are, are vultures. Some people you can't trust. Some people are tricky, and if you treat them as if they are somebody that you can trust, you're gonna be in a lot of trouble.

    14. CS

      Mm.

    15. RG

      Okay? So you have to understand who the people are that you're dealing with. What is their nature? You know, are they somebody that you can actually trust? And sometimes you think that you can trust them because you're not really paying attention. You're not paying attention to those gut things that we're talking about. So that kind of thing, that comes from a chapter about know who you're dealing with and know exactly the kind of energy that you're getting from people so that you, you're not dealing with a swordsman and reciting poetry, in which case you're gonna get s- you know, stabbed and killed.

    16. CS

      Yeah.

    17. RG

      So you have to know each person that you deal with.

    18. CS

      W- you know, you're really a student of history in so many ways, and human nature. In that vein, it seems like today more than ever, we value directness and transparency, and they're very direct, and they're authentic, and authenticity wins, and this is sort of this narrative of today. Has that actually always been the narrative? Like, ha- has, have humans always said we wanna be authentic and real-

    19. RG

      No

    20. CS

      ... and direct?

    21. RG

      No.

    22. CS

      So this is kind of a new phenomenon, even though it might not be true.

    23. RG

      Well, it's a pattern.

    24. CS

      Huh.

    25. RG

      So history goes in patterns So I'm not gonna bore you with too many history lessons, but in the 18th century, um, the theater was the, was the main metaphor for being social. So you never wanted to be exactly yourself. You were playing a role when you entered in the social or when you entered a cafe. You were playing a part. You were an actor in a play. You didn't wanna reveal who you really were. It was the opposite. And then later, there was a reaction against that in the n- early 19th century among the romantic movement, where we have to be authentic. We can't be, we can't wear these masks anymore.

    26. CS

      Interesting.

    27. RG

      It goes back and forth, back and forth, back and forth throughout history. So right now, it's all about being authentic. In 10, 20 years, people are gonna react against that, and they're gonna be more into fantasy and role-playing and wearing those masks and having fun in the social environment. Um, but I would say to this is nobody is ever authentic. It's a myth. It's bullshit, in fact, and it kind of is annoying. Because to be a human being is to be social and is to wear a mask, is to be an actor. As I said, nobody ever tells you exactly what they think. That person that you think is so authentic is actually creating the effect of authenticity.

    28. CS

      Mm.

    29. RG

      They know how to act like that, right? But they're not saying or doing exactly what's going on in their mind.

    30. CS

      Mm.

  13. 41:10 – 42:50

    Playing the Power Game

    1. RG

      Oh, oh. [laughs]

    2. CS

      What do you think about this line?

    3. RG

      My Twitter.

    4. CS

      What do you think is meant by that? "To win, you have to play the power game better than the villains."

    5. RG

      Well, um, so I- I'm not sure, because it's, it's not exactly something I've ever written.

    6. CS

      Ah.

    7. RG

      But what I think the person who wrote that is trying to say-

    8. CS

      Robert Greene, the fake. [laughs]

    9. RG

      ... my social media guy, whom I'm gonna have to talk to after this, um, what I think I'm trying to say is you out there are probably a little bit naive-

    10. CS

      Mm-hmm

    11. RG

      ... as most of us are, like I was, right? And there are other people out there who d- aren't as ethical as you are. They play the game differently, right? They're not so concerned with the rules. They bend the rules, and you obey the rules, right? And they have the advantage over you because they're willing to do more than you're willing to do.

    12. CS

      Mm.

    13. RG

      You have to learn a little bit about their game.

    14. CS

      Mm.

    15. RG

      You have to play a little bit about what they're doing. You have to play a little bit of hardball back at them, and you have to do it better. Because what a lot, what's wrong with a lot of villains are is they're actually not as smart as you think. They're operating on emotion. They're pushing people around. They're powerful. They think they're so great. They're egotistical. They're grandiose. They think that they can't do no wrong. You need to be strategic in dealing with people who are manipulative. If you can be strategic, then you have the upper hand, right? Because I don't think, a lot of times villains aren't as strategic as you think. I think that's what I meant.

    16. CS

      And a lot of times it seems like we d- we just act. We don't

  14. 42:50 – 45:10

    Strategic Thinking vs. Tactical Hell

    1. CS

      actually think about what our actions are. We s- we speak, we don't think about what we speak

    2. RG

      Right

    3. CS

      We're sort of this, this, you know, hit, hit a knee, hit yourself on the knee and you have this-

    4. RG

      Reflex, yeah

    5. CS

      ... yeah, this reflex action. And so if you're a type of person who overlays, man, 10 or 20% of let me ponder my interpersonal communication-

    6. RG

      Yeah

    7. CS

      ... more than the next person, you might win more often.

    8. RG

      That's right. Right. Um, I mean, I look around me, and I think the, the main fault I see in, in reading the news and in dealing with people is they don't think long-term.

    9. CS

      Mm.

    10. RG

      They're just reacting in the moment. And in the book, I wrote a book about strategy, my version of the art of war called The 33 Strategies of War, and I call this tactical hell, as opposed to being strategic in life. Tactical hell is you're continually just reacting to what other people are doing. If you can lift your head out of the moment and think a few steps ahead and think, "What is it that will actually bring me success?" Not just immediately against this person, but three or four steps down the road. Elevate your mind above the battlefield and think ahead and game it out. And sometimes what you think is going to work immediately is actually the worst thing you can do. I've take a political example right now that's in the news, and, um, it had to do with the recent, um, possible shutdown of the government. And Chuck Schumer, as we all know, eventually folded and he agreed not to shut it down, and he voted for the budget, and he said that the shutdown would've been the worst thing that could have happened. Okay? But in strategic thinking, which is something that I study very deeply-

    11. CS

      Mm

    12. RG

      ... that was definitely the wrong move to make.

    13. CS

      Mm.

    14. RG

      It was reacting. It was being tactical and not being strategic. When you have leverage in a situation, in any situation in life, you have to use your leverage. And what a lot of people would do, they're afraid of the leverage that they have. They're afraid they're gonna offend the other person. They're afraid they're gonna go too far, and they, they kind of compromise and they don't use what they actually have. And what that signals is, you're weak, we can play you, and the next time around we're gonna negotiate

  15. 45:10 – 45:46

    Leveraging Power and Long-Term Thinking

    1. RG

      the hell out of you. We're gonna beat you, okay? You have to signal to people sometimes that you're gonna use your leverage, that even if it means something bad is gonna happen like a shutdown, I'm signaling to you that I'm not weak, that the next time around you have to negotiate with me. That's long-term thinking. That's getting out of the immediate reaction and going-

    2. CS

      Mm

    3. RG

      ... the bigger game is long-term, right? And I wanna... There's gonna be more and more ti- situations where you're gonna be conflicting. You wanna signal to them that you're not a pushover, that you can resist them, that there's something else going on.

    4. CS

      Yeah. It's, it's such a superpower, and it's so hard to do.

  16. 45:46 – 51:02

    Fear vs. Likability in Relationships

    1. CS

      I remember the first couple deals I did, I was scared. I didn't realize... You said it perfectly, which is you're scared of your own leverage. And I think it's also you're scared of people not liking you.

    2. RG

      Yeah.

    3. CS

      It's feels like especially today, likability is another thing we want. We want authenticity because we think that it will make people like us.

    4. RG

      Yeah.

    5. CS

      And if we're not liked, we think that that is bad, whereas, you know, the, the guy on the other half of this book, Machiavelli, famously he was the one that said it is better to be feared than loved.

    6. RG

      Yeah.

    7. CS

      Right? Do you think that's true?

    8. RG

      It's, it depends on your situation. Um, the thing, the reason why Machiavelli wrote that is if people love you, love is very ephemeral thing.

    9. CS

      Yeah.

    10. RG

      So people can like you and love you, and that's great, but the next day something happens and they don't like you as much, you don't do something that pleases them as much, and that love turns into something else. But if they fear you, that fear ain't going away. It's strong, it's stable, it's there. They can't change it, because they know that if they cross the line, they're gonna pay a pu- a price. You're gonna hit them or whatever it is, right? So fear is much more stable. It's much more powerful. But you can go too far. If you're an employee, employer of, of a company and everybody's afraid of you, then they're not gonna tell you the truth.

    11. CS

      Mm.

    12. RG

      They're gonna, they're gonna nuance everything that they say to you, so you're gonna be... You're not gonna know what's really happening in the world. Everyone's gonna give you news that's gonna, that they think is gonna, what you want to hear. They're not gonna tell you what you need to hear. They're not gonna be as creative. They're not gonna share their own ideas. So you can go too far with that, right? So for specific situations, I always tell people and clients that I consult with, "You want to have the touch of fear. You want them to think that if they mess with you they're gonna pay a price, that they can't push you around." That's not the only thing they fear f- feel about you. They do like you, but there's a little undercurrent of, "I respect that person, and if I don't do certain things I'm gonna pay a price for that."

    13. CS

      Interesting. So in practice, would that be something like, I remember reading Netflix's, um, sort of their manifesto on how to run a business, and, uh, they, they kind of famously wrote this PowerPoint about it and shared it. And they had a, they basically had a zero policy policy, which is, like, they tried to have almost no rules at Netflix, and they were like, "We trust you guys to be employees. You can take as much time off as you want to."

    14. RG

      Really?

    15. CS

      "You can spend whatever you want."

    16. RG

      Wow, I never heard about this.

    17. CS

      "No hotel minimums. No plane, uh, costs. If you think you need first trust-"

    18. RG

      Whoa, whoa

    19. CS

      ... or first, first class, take it." And so that was their policy. But the way that they enforced it was interesting, because they said, "Do whatever you want, as long as it's in the best interest of Netflix."

    20. RG

      Yeah.

    21. CS

      And so how I think they enforced it would be, like, exclamation points of fear.

    22. RG

      Yeah.

    23. CS

      So they basically would say, um, "Well, this person spent a bunch of money on themselves," and, um, you know- Didn't go to meetings that they said that they went to, that was thus not in the best interest of Netflix, and then they would sort of publicly fire this person.

    24. RG

      Oh.

    25. CS

      And talk about it, and say, "This is why this person was fired."

    26. RG

      Wow. Wow.

    27. CS

      So is that, like, is that an example of how to be, yes, we can be generally loved from having this wonderful open policy, but upon, you know, somebody doing something wrong, exclamation point of fear is, this person was fired and we will do a public showing of it.

    28. RG

      Yeah. Yeah. I think that's very powerful. I've seen that in sports.

    29. CS

      Yes.

    30. RG

      Um, Vince Lombardi, uh, who was a great coach of the Green Bay Packers back in the '60s, probably one of the greatest football coaches ever, he had a policy of treating everybody equally. There were no stars on the team, even though there were players who were better than others. Everybody got the same equal treatment.

  17. 51:02 – 55:06

    The Sublime and Personal Transformation

    1. CS

      the- shocking them consistently, they just lay down.

    2. RG

      Yeah. Yeah.

    3. CS

      Interesting. So right now you're writing a new book.

    4. RG

      Yes.

    5. CS

      What are you obsessing on currently? Like, what is in that mind of yours today?

    6. RG

      Well, um, I'm, I'm finishing a chap- it's a book about the sublime.

    7. CS

      Mm.

    8. RG

      Which is, um, you know, I had a stroke, and I had a, a near-death experience. I came very close to dying. Uh, somebody basically saved my life. My wife did. Um, and, uh, I, I maintain that that kind of experience changes you, changes how you look at life.

    9. CS

      Mm.

    10. RG

      The things that you took for granted, you no longer take for granted. And so when I look at the world, when I'm being alive, just being alive as I am right now-

    11. CS

      Mm

    12. RG

      ... it's actually a very strange feeling to be alive, 'cause I came very close to death. And it made me realize that despite all the horrible things that are going on in the world, it's actually incredibly insane that we humans are at this moment in history, that in the course of 30,000 years, we went from being, you know, uh, whatever we were, to, to having all this incredible power. We are these insane animals. This consciousness that we have is this unbelievable gift. We have these brains that are by far the most complex organisms in the universe. Scientists, scientists have demonstrated that. But we're not aware of any of these things. We take it all for granted.

    13. CS

      Mm.

    14. RG

      And it's a book that's trying to open your eyes up to all of the sublime aspects of just being alive.

    15. CS

      Mm.

    16. RG

      Of the history of the cosmos, of ancient history, of what it was like when we were children, of how our brains are formed, about our relationship with animals who are, have consciousness, that we can interact with other species, with love and how sublime love can be, with history, with death itself. And so, um, it's a book that's kind of making me feel better about all of my limitations, but I want the readers to go away and think differently about what it means to be alive, to transform them. And so the chapter that I'm writing now, uh, that I'm going into just now, is about willpower and energy.

    17. CS

      Mm.

    18. RG

      And how we have capabilities that we don't even tap into, that we're only using a small part of our brain, that we're only using a tenth of the energy that we actually have, right? It's our minds that are holding us back.

    19. CS

      Mm.

    20. RG

      And that we're gifted with these powers that are, that are not being used. And I have examples of humans who've been in situations that are incredibly stressful, incredibly difficult, and they overcame them. They were able to tap into those powers because they were facing death, essentially. They were facing something very terrible. And then, and a, and a kind of courage came up, ca- came to them. So there's, like, a story of, uh, a plane crash in the Andes, and i- in the worst part of the Andes, and in, in the mountains in the middle of winter. And these boys, who were on a rugby team, they somehow managed, uh, in the course of three months, to save their lives. Uh, more than half of them died. But how they did it, the guy who narrates the story, is so incredible that anybody who, the p- afterwards, when people said, "It's absolutely impossible what you did. You climbed these 18,000 foot mountains that even mountain climbers can't climb, and you did it without any equipment," it was, he called it a miracle. And so we have these powers that we're not even aware of, and circumstances will force us upon, force them upon us.

    21. CS

      Mm.

    22. RG

      So if you're facing stress, if you're facing difficulty, you will feel this other energy that s- so-

    23. CS

      Mm

    24. RG

      ... flows through you that's very human, that's very powerful. So

  18. 55:06 – 1:00:54

    Finding Inspiration in Adversity

    1. RG

      that's what I'm writing about now, and that's what I'm, I'm kinda fascinated about.

    2. CS

      Interesting. You know, it's actually funny, because I was thinking about What does somebody like you, who's such a prolific writer, who's written these books that like-

    3. RG

      Well, I'm not very prolific actually. I take four or five years to write a book.

    4. CS

      Well, that's true. They're long though.

    5. RG

      I wish I were prolific.

    6. CS

      [laughs] You are instead a very profound writer.

    7. RG

      Okay. Thank you. [laughs]

    8. CS

      Okay. I'll, I'll me- I'll meet you on that one.

    9. RG

      Okay.

    10. CS

      So you're a very profound writer. You write these deep works. Um, I imagine there are moments where you feel uninspired.

    11. RG

      Oh, God.

    12. CS

      And [laughs]

    13. RG

      Tell me about it.

    14. CS

      And you need to dive in. Is there something that you do when you are feeling absolutely no way you can write?

    15. RG

      Well, you know, it's almost a question that makes me wanna cry. I'm so sorry. But before I, I had my stroke, I wrote seven books, and I would get those moments, and what I would do was I had to get out of my mind and I would go take a hike-

    16. CS

      Yeah

    17. RG

      ... up into the park, and all these great ideas would come to me. Or I would go for a long swim because I was into long distance swimming. And then I'd come out of the pool and, wow, my mind was just sparkling with ideas. I can't do any of it now.

    18. CS

      Oof.

    19. RG

      I can't hike. I can't swim. I can't do the things that got me out of my mind and my body.

    20. CS

      Oof.

    21. RG

      And I'm writing a book that has to be exciting, that has to excite the reader every single page, every word. I can't write a dull book about the sublime.

    22. CS

      Oof.

    23. RG

      So what I do is I have to go through, I have to work on my head. And so I'm sitting there writing this thing, and it's not coming out right. I have to step back, and I have to put myself in the mood, and I have to go, "This is an incredible privilege you have, Robert, to write this book. Let's get into the spirit of it. Let's feel what you're trying to write. Let's not be intellectual. Let's not write something. Let's feel it first and then write it."

    24. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    25. RG

      I have to go through a process. I have to listen to some music. I have to look at my cat who's walking by. I have to talk to my w- you know, just look at my wife or see something. And then I feel it, and then I can write it. But it is difficult because all of those things that I depended on before, I don't have. So just like I said, when life turns against you, you have to adapt, you have to learn. It brings the best out of you sometimes because we're normally, we're in a rut. Things are so familiar. We don't work on ourselves.

    26. CS

      Yeah.

    27. RG

      But when things turn bad like they turned bad for me, you have to change, you have to adapt, you have to become a different person. And it makes you grow and it makes you learn, which is what I've had to do. I have to, I have to force myself to be inspired literally.

    28. CS

      Wow. And in a completely new way. It's hard enough-

    29. RG

      Yeah

    30. CS

      ... even to do it the way that you've done it for decades.

  19. 1:00:54 – 1:06:01

    The Importance of Authenticity in Writing

    1. RG

      We sure don't

    2. CS

      ... "except for your ego."

    3. RG

      Yeah, yeah.

    4. CS

      Like, only write if it comes bursting out of you, if it would, if it would kill you to not put pen to paper.

    5. RG

      Right.

    6. CS

      Which it sounds like this is that book for you. You're like, you have, you feel like you have to write it.

    7. RG

      Well, you know, um, I guess I'm, I'm maybe slightly neurotic-

    8. CS

      [laughs]

    9. RG

      ... in that, you know, or a hypochondriac.

    10. CS

      Mm.

    11. RG

      I always think that I am dy- ... gonna die, like some illness, or that I'm gonna have an accident and the book will never get finished. And so I tell my wife, "If I'm dead, this is how I wanna finish it." You know, I'm that... You know, I know these aren't great things about me.

    12. CS

      Have you always been like that?

    13. RG

      Yeah.

    14. CS

      Oh.

    15. RG

      Yeah. Um, so, uh, this book, I have to finish. I can't let myself die [laughs] before I finish it, because it means that much to me, you know?

    16. CS

      Mm.

    17. RG

      And so, uh, sometimes I, I t- I'm a little bit of a daredevil, in that I used to, my hiking and swimming and mountain biking, I would do things that were a little bit risky, 'cause I like that. And so now I have, this is, this is so silly, I don't even know why I'm going into it, but I have a special bike that I can use, 'cause I can't ride a normal bike. It's my only outlet in life-

    18. CS

      Mm

    19. RG

      ... is this recumbent bike. And I go whipping down these hills, you can, past cars and everything, and I suddenly, I don't wanna do this today, Robert, 'cause you might get crushed by a car and then your book is finished. But then I force myself to do it anyway. But, um, this is a book that I have to get out.

    20. CS

      Interesting.

    21. RG

      And I'm on chapter 11, and there are 12 chapters.

    22. CS

      Wow, you're close.

    23. RG

      So I just have to live another nine months and I'll be okay. [laughs]

    24. CS

      [laughs] I'd like a little bit longer, but, uh, I like that.

    25. RG

      I, I do-

    26. CS

      Does your wife laugh when you say that?

    27. RG

      Yeah, she knows. She's, she's been putting up with it a long time, yeah.

    28. CS

      For a long time.

    29. RG

      She, yeah.

    30. CS

      You know, it's funny, because you also have a, a line that's like, "Never whine, never complain, never try to justify yourself."

  20. 1:06:01 – 1:10:50

    Understanding Anti-Seductive Traits

    1. RG

      you know, uh, we th- we think and we create things that are, are, are good or bad or whatever, but they're just things that happen.

    2. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RG

      They're not good or bad. They just are events that happen. And we think of them and we make them what we wanna make them.

    4. CS

      Yeah. You know, this is something in, in your book Seduction, but kind of a theme throughout them. You had this idea of anti-seductive, which I had never thought of-

    5. RG

      Yeah

    6. CS

      ... this before.

    7. RG

      Yeah.

    8. CS

      What is somebody who is anti-seductive like?

    9. RG

      Well, I hope you're not one of them.

    10. CS

      I am.

    11. RG

      No, I don't think so. [laughs]

    12. CS

      Depends to who, I bet.

    13. RG

      Well, you know how s- some people are, are good seducers?

    14. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    15. RG

      And it could be not just for sex, it could be socially or politically. They're very calm. They know how to tell a good story. They have charisma. They have energy. Their mo- their, their face lights up. They know how to say the right things, and they, they, they c- attract you.

    16. CS

      Mm.

    17. RG

      Okay? But there are people who do the opposite.

    18. CS

      Yeah.

    19. RG

      They say the wrong things. They do the wrong things. They dress the wrong way. They take you to the wrong places. They repel you.

    20. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    21. RG

      They are anti-seductive.

    22. CS

      Mm.

    23. RG

      Nobody wants to be around them, right? And so what are the qualities that make a person anti-seductive? So one of them are people who talk too much, who are always bragging, who always have a story to tell. You know, um, in, in the realm of seduction, women often complain of men who explain. They explain everything. They explain exactly what you're doing, what you mean, right? They call it mansplaining. Okay? So people who tell you everything, who are a- doing 95% of the talking, and they don't think they are, they're extremely anti-seductive.

    24. CS

      Mm.

    25. RG

      People who moralize, who tell you, "You're wrong. This is what you need to do. This is what's good. This is what's bad," that's anti-seductive, right? They preach to you. People who are always bragging about themselves, like they're so great, that's a very anti-seductive quality.

    26. CS

      Mm.

    27. RG

      I think being vulgar is an anti-seductive quality because it's like you have no self-control. You don't look at yourself and realize that what you're saying or what you, how you're dressing or how you're looking is actually kind of off-putting.

    28. CS

      Mm.

    29. RG

      Right? So a seductive person is self-aware. They're self-aware of their body language, of, of, you know, the clothes that they wear, of how they talk. The anti-seductive person has no self-awareness. They enter life, they don't look in a mirror, they don't think about what they're saying. They just think they're being natural, and they offend a lot of people.

    30. CS

      Yeah. We've def- I've definitely met all those types and been all of those types at-

  21. 1:10:50 – 1:15:56

    Creating Mystery in Relationships

    1. RG

      Michael Jackson did that. He would disappear f- between albums for three or four years, and it just made people go crazy and talk about him and wonder who he was." That was before the era of social media, I grant, but you have to disappear sometimes so people don't take you for granted. If they know everything about you, it's human nature that you become too familiar, and they're not interested in you anymore at s- a certain point. So you have to create mystery.

    2. CS

      Mm. Man. Do you think you have to do that in interpersonal relationships too?

    3. RG

      Yes.

    4. CS

      How does one create mystery, let's say, in a relationship?

    5. RG

      Well, h- it's that you think of doing something that's gonna surprise the other person.

    6. CS

      Mm.

    7. RG

      Now, nobody knows you completely. Your husband doesn't know every single thing about you, Codie. He didn't know, [laughs] he didn't know you before you got married. He didn't know all your previous boyfriends and ev- and everything, and some of the naughty things that you've done in your life.

    8. CS

      I was a saint, Robert.

    9. RG

      Huh?

    10. CS

      No, no former boyfriends. Perfect saint over here. [laughs]

    11. RG

      Oh, right, right. Like, I believe that.

    12. CS

      [laughs]

    13. RG

      Um, so he, he doesn't know these things. He doesn't know you completely. So if you give him a sense of, I'm sorry, what's his name?

    14. CS

      Chris.

    15. RG

      Chris. I've met, I've met, I've forgot. Chris, you show him something that he didn't know about before.

    16. CS

      Mm.

    17. RG

      He goes, "Wow, I didn't know Codie. I was taking her for granted. I wasn't, you know, I, I think I knew everything about her. She showed me something that surprised me." Maybe the surprise isn't something good, but at least it, like, keeps him on his heels. It makes him think about you.

    18. CS

      Mm.

    19. RG

      Because in a relationship, people will take you for granted after a couple of months.

    20. CS

      Yeah.

    21. RG

      Right? They were so interested in you in the beginning, and now, eh, it's kind of dwindling. They take you for granted because they think they know everything about you. If you surprise them, if you say something different, if you take them to a place where they never thought that you would take them to, if you dress a certain way that seems a little bit out of character, not completely out of character, they go, "Wow." But you need to do that in a relationship constantly. Otherwise, it's just gonna fizzle. All the energy's gonna go out of it.

    22. CS

      That's so beautiful. It really feels to me, what I'm reminded speaking to you and every time I read your books is, it is this, like, it's this beautiful game, you know, whether it's a play that we all are playing, and if you do it, uh, in the right way, that is somehow how you wanna play the game too, you can have outsized outcomes without that much additional effort.

    23. RG

      That's right.

    24. CS

      Which is a beautiful thing. I cannot wait to read your next book. When is it out yet?

    25. RG

      I can't wait t- to have you read it.

    26. CS

      [laughs]

    27. RG

      'Cause that means it'll be finished.

    28. CS

      I bet. Just-

    29. RG

      Uh, it'll be out in-

    30. CS

      ... careful on your bike rides.

  22. 1:15:56 – 1:18:09

    Words of Wisdom for the Younger Self

    1. CS

      agree.

    2. RG

      I love podcasting. I love podcasters. I love that world. You just get to be yourself. There are people who actually read your books.

    3. CS

      Yeah.

    4. RG

      You know? And it's like a real interaction, so.

    5. CS

      Yeah, then they feel like they know you.

    6. RG

      I'm very grateful for all that.

    7. CS

      So the last part, this podcast, the idea is, what would you say to the young Robert listening out there, but you, um, if you could go back? What would be your words of wisdom? And then whatever you feel comfortable writing, and then we have you just read a message to young Robert. And it's sort of a-

    8. RG

      Okay

    9. CS

      ... reminder that even those on high, you know, at some point they were young and lost and all the things we all were.

    10. RG

      Yeah. Okay. So what I wo- wrote was, "Listen, young Robert, everything, well, it's gonna turn out fine for you, so stop worrying and feeling so depressed and enjoy your youth more, because it goes by way too quickly. You'll have plenty more to worry about when you're older and things start falling apart, so try to enjoy yourself much more right now."

    11. CS

      It's beautiful. Thank you for sharing, Robert.

    12. RG

      That make sense?

    13. CS

      Yes, it did.

    14. RG

      Okay. [laughs]

    15. CS

      And I think [laughs] that's true.

    16. RG

      Yeah.

    17. CS

      Even on your worst day when you're young, it's kinda your best day, isn't it?

    18. RG

      Yeah.

    19. CS

      I wish we-

    20. RG

      I mean, it's c- it's good being older. I don't, I don't regret that.

    21. CS

      Mm-hmm.

    22. RG

      It has its own advantages. I don't take things so seriously, but man, I had so much more fun [laughs] when I was younger, you know?

    23. CS

      Yeah. Yeah, I think you did say too, um, God, what a bummer that would be. You said it more eloquently, but what a bummer that would be if everything worked out, uh, right on the first attempt.

    24. RG

      Yeah. Yeah.

    25. CS

      I think that's true.

    26. RG

      You have to learn, yeah.

    27. CS

      Yeah. Ah, well, Robert, this was amazing. Thank you.

    28. RG

      Thank you so much for having me, Codie. [outro music]

Episode duration: 1:18:09

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