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Jung Chang (Wild Swans author) — Living through history's largest man-made famine

A true honor to speak with Jung Chang. She is the author of Wild Swans: Three Daughters of China (sold 15+ million copies worldwide) and Mao: The Unknown Story. We discuss: * what it was like growing up during the Cultural Revolution as the daughter of a denounced official * why the CCP continues to worship the biggest mass murderer in human history. * how exactly Communist totalitarianism was able to subjugate a billion people * why Chinese leaders like Xi and Deng who suffered from the Cultural Revolution don't condemn Mao * how Mao starved and killed 40 million people during The Great Leap Forward in order to exchange food for Soviet weapons Wild Swans is the most moving book I've ever read. It was a real privilege to speak with its author. 𝐄𝐏𝐈𝐒𝐎𝐃𝐄 𝐋𝐈𝐍𝐊𝐒 * Transcript: https://www.dwarkeshpatel.com/p/jung-chang * Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/jung-chang-living-through-cultural-revolution-and/id1516093381?i=1000636931465 * Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/4XJRFIvfRetdzq3pffmMUL?si=FGzMVzV1QfSbZl522jD5_g * Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/dwarkesh_sp 𝐓𝐈𝐌𝐄𝐒𝐓𝐀𝐌𝐏𝐒 00:00:00 - Growing up during Cultural Revolution 00:15:58 - Could officials have overthrown Mao? 00:34:09 - Great Leap Forward 00:48:12 - Modern support of Mao 01:03:24 - Life as peasant 01:21:30 - Psychology of communist society

Jung ChangguestDwarkesh Patelhost
Nov 28, 20231h 31mWatch on YouTube ↗

At a glance

WHAT IT’S REALLY ABOUT

Jung Chang recalls Mao’s terror: famine, brainwashing, and survival

  1. Jung Chang recounts her upbringing in Maoist China, from a privileged communist household to exile as a peasant, barefoot doctor, and factory worker after her father criticized Mao and was tortured and driven insane. She describes how total control, propaganda, and terror produced genuine worship of Mao and made dissent or organized resistance almost impossible, even for top officials such as Liu Shaoqi and Deng Xiaoping.
  2. Chang explains the Great Leap Forward famine as a deliberate policy of extracting grain from peasants to fund heavy industry, magnified by Mao’s profound economic ignorance and catastrophic campaigns such as backyard steel furnaces and the extermination of sparrows. She details the Cultural Revolution as a psychological war on the population, using youth violence, forced self‑criticism, and the breaking of family bonds to atomize society.
  3. The conversation also explores why today’s Chinese regime still venerates Mao, the role of ideology versus pure power-seeking, why Deng protected the Party rather than denouncing Mao, and why Western intellectuals have often excused or romanticized communist regimes. Chang reflects on how she eventually became a writer in Britain, using her mother’s stories to write Wild Swans and later a critical biography of Mao.

IDEAS WORTH REMEMBERING

5 ideas

Totalitarian control depends on both isolation and terror.

Chang emphasizes that Maoist brainwashing worked because China was sealed off from alternative information and dissent was punished with extreme violence, making even private doubts about Mao psychologically difficult and physically dangerous.

The Great Leap Forward famine was driven by deliberate grain extraction, not just ‘policy mistakes’.

Mao exported food to buy Soviet and Eastern European industrial equipment, fully aware peasants would starve, while communes and travel controls prevented rural flight and revolt; backyard furnaces and anti‑sparrow campaigns compounded the disaster.

Communes were designed primarily as instruments of control, not efficiency.

Collectivization allowed the Party to organize hundreds of millions of peasants into a manageable number of units, control food allocation, approve marriages and travel, and quickly suppress any attempt at resistance.

Self‑criticism and forced confessions were tools to break people and prevent organization.

Maoist denunciation and self‑criticism sessions humiliated individuals, turned friends and colleagues against each other, and made people doubt their own moral instincts, thereby destroying trust and making conspiracy against the regime nearly impossible.

Even high-ranking victims like Deng Xiaoping chose to protect the Party over truth about Mao.

Despite personal tragedy, Deng avoided a Khrushchev-style denunciation of Mao because he believed exposing Mao’s crimes could collapse communist rule in China, prioritizing Party survival—and associated privilege—over historical reckoning.

WORDS WORTH SAVING

5 quotes

China was literally a cultural desert without books, cinemas, theaters, museums for ten years.

Jung Chang

I was always writing in my head with an imaginary pen.

Jung Chang

If this is paradise, what then is hell?

Jung Chang, recalling her 16-year-old thoughts about ‘socialist paradise’

Mao basically seized this food to export to Russia and Eastern Europe, knowing his people would die of starvation.

Jung Chang

Deng Xiaoping could not have denounced Mao without endangering the rule of the Party.

Jung Chang

Jung Chang’s family background and persecution during the Cultural RevolutionBrainwashing, fear, and the psychology of living under totalitarian ruleThe Great Leap Forward famine: causes, mechanisms, and human impactStructure and function of communes and mass campaigns in Maoist ChinaPower struggles: Mao, Liu Shaoqi, Deng Xiaoping, Lin Biao, and the armyMao’s cult of personality, ideological manipulation, and psychological controlContemporary China: Mao’s legacy, censorship, and reception of Chang’s books

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