Jung Chang (Wild Swans author) — Living through history's largest man-made famine

ℹ️ EPISODE INFO

Released

November 29, 2023

Duration

1h 31m

Channel

Dwarkesh Podcast

Watch on YouTube

▶ Open ↗

📝 EPISODE DESCRIPTION

A true honor to speak with Jung Chang. She is the author of Wild Swans: Three Daughters of China (sold 15+ million copies worldwide) and Mao: The Unknown Story. We discuss:

• what it was like growing up during the Cultural Revolution as the daughter of a denounced official
• why the CCP continues to worship the biggest mass murderer in human history.
• how exactly Communist totalitarianism was able to subjugate a billion people
• why Chinese leaders like Xi and Deng who suffered from the Cultural Revolution don't condemn Mao
• how Mao starved and killed 40 million people during The Great Leap Forward in order to exchange food for Soviet weapons

Wild Swans is the most moving book I've ever read. It was a real privilege to speak with its author. 𝐄𝐏𝐈𝐒𝐎𝐃𝐄 𝐋𝐈𝐍𝐊𝐒

• Transcript: https://www.dwarkeshpatel.com/p/jung-chang
• Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/jung-chang-living-through-cultural-revolution-and/id1516093381?i=1000636931465
• Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/4XJRFIvfRetdzq3pffmMUL?si=FGzMVzV1QfSbZl522jD5_g
• Follow me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/dwarkesh_sp

𝐓𝐈𝐌𝐄𝐒𝐓𝐀𝐌𝐏𝐒 00:00:00 - Growing up during Cultural Revolution 00:15:58 - Could officials have overthrown Mao? 00:34:09 - Great Leap Forward 00:48:12 - Modern support of Mao 01:03:24 - Life as peasant 01:21:30 - Psychology of communist society

🎤 SPEAKERS

• Jung Chang

  guest

• Dwarkesh Patel

  host

🧾 EPISODE SUMMARY

In this episode of Dwarkesh Podcast, featuring Jung Chang and Dwarkesh Patel, Jung Chang (Wild Swans author) — Living through history's largest man-made famine explores Jung Chang recalls Mao’s terror: famine, brainwashing, and survival Jung Chang recounts her upbringing in Maoist China, from a privileged communist household to exile as a peasant, barefoot doctor, and factory worker after her father criticized Mao and was tortured and driven insane. She describes how total control, propaganda, and terror produced genuine worship of Mao and made dissent or organized resistance almost impossible, even for top officials such as Liu Shaoqi and Deng Xiaoping.

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