Jung Chang (Wild Swans author) — Living through history's largest man-made famine

Jung Chang 0:00 And my father spoke up against Mao's policies. He was arrested, tortured, driven insane. And my mother was under tremendous pressure to denounce my father. She refused, and my mother was made to kneel on broken glass, um, she was paraded in the streets where children spat at her and threw stones at her. The desire to write never left me. So in the following years, when I was working as a peasant, and as a barefoot doctor, as a steel worker, and an electrician, I was always writing in my head with an imaginary pen.

Dwarkesh Patel 0:42 Today, I have the pleasure of interviewing Jung Chang. Her first book, Wild Swans, has sold over 15 million copies worldwide. The US diplomat, George Kennan, described the Gulag Archipelago, he said, "This is the greatest and most powerful single indictment of a political regime ever to be leveled in modern times." And when I read that quote, I realized this is exactly how I describe your books. Um, Wild Swans obviously, but also your biography of Mao, titled Mao: The Unknown Story, both of which we'll talk about today. Um, it is a true honor to speak with you.

Jung Chang 1:17 Thank you very much for having me.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:19 So w- we will get into Mao and his atrocities in a second, but let us begin by, w- would you mind laying the scene for us? What was it like? Y- you grew up under, in China, under Mao. L- let's begin there, what was it like as you, as you started to grow up during this time?

Jung Chang 1:35 I was born in China, in Sichuan, in 1952. So I grew up under Mao. Um, when I was a child, I led quite a privileged life because both my parents were communist officials and we lived in this compound with, um, uh, you know, servants, cooks, drivers. It was very class-driven society and I grew up so much taking, um, class and privilege for granted, that when I first came to Britain, I thought Britain was wonderfully classless. (laughs) And my, of course my views were slightly modified over the years. Um, and then in 1966, when I was 14, Mao launched his cultural revolution which was his Great Purge. And my father spoke up against Mao's policies. Um, so as a result, he was arrested, tortured, driven insane. He was exiled to a camp and died, um, tragically and prematurely. My mother was under tremendous pressure to denounce my father. She refused. As a result, she went through over 100 of these ghastly denunciation meetings, which were everyday features in China at the time. And basically the victims, uh, were put on the stage and their arms were ferociously twisted to the back and their heads were pushed down, um, they were kicked and beaten and my mother was m- once made to kneel on broken glass. Um, she was paraded in the streets where children spat at her and threw stones at her. Um, but she survived. And today, she still lives in Chengdu, at age 92. My family was scattered and I was exiled to the edge of the Himalayas and worked as a peasant and then as a barefoot doctor, uh, which was a doctor basically without any training, because Mao had said, "The more books you read, the more stupid you become." So schools were closed, you know, books were burned. Um, I mean China was literally a cultural desert without books, cinemas, theaters, museums for ten years. Um, and um then I became an electrician, and again there was no training so I had five electric shocks in one month. (laughs) Um, and then in 1973, mm, partly, if you know, after Nixon's visit to China, mm, I mean, uh, but more, more also because for the internal political reasons, and universities have began to reopen and I was able to get into Sichuan University to learn English. Uh, but you know, our teachers had never seen foreigners themselves, because China had been closed to the outside world after the communists took power in 1949. So our textbooks were written by these teachers who'd never been abroad. I remember the first lesson was long live Chairman Mao.

Dwarkesh Patel 5:22 (laughs)

Jung Chang 5:22 And the second lesson was greetings, um, because the Chinese in those years, when we bumped into each other, we said (Chinese) which means, "Where are you going? Have you eaten?" So those were the English greetings I learned.

Dwarkesh Patel 5:42 (laughs)

Jung Chang 5:42 So when I first came to London, I used to go around and ask people where they were going, whether they had eaten. Um, well, the only foreigners I had, um, spoken to were some sailors in a port in South China.... where we, as English language students, were sent to practice our English. So, um, and that was up when I was 23. Um, but, um, I mean, of course, we- we- w- we were at the port eagerly awaiting for our sailors, and we had no idea what must be on their minds, uh, how different this must be from the expectation of a port life. In 1976, Mao died, and China began to change. And in 1978, um, I... there was a m- um, national exam to- to select the people to go abroad. For the first time under the communist rule, going abroad was, uh, based on, mm, on an academic basis.

Dwarkesh Patel 6:56 Mm-hmm.

Jung Chang 6:56 And so I did very well at the exam, so I became one of the first 14 people to come to Britain. And I'm... As far as I know, I was the first person to get out of Sichuan province, a province then of 90 million people, to come and study in the West. So when I got my doctorate in linguistics at the University of York in 1982, um, I became the first person from Communist China-

Dwarkesh Patel 7:32 Wow.

Jung Chang 7:32 ... ever to get a doctorate from a British university.

Dwarkesh Patel 7:37 Wow.

Jung Chang 7:37 So, okay, so I was, um, mm, in Britain, and for 10 years, I didn't want to think about the past, um, because it was too painful. Uh, my- my father died, my grandmother, who brought us up, died. And, uh, there was too... You know, I just- I just wanted to spend time enjoying the West. Um, I had actually always wanted to be a writer. Um, uh, when I was a child, I loved writing. Um, but when I- when I was growing up under Mao, it was impossible, um, to dream of even become a writer, because nearly all writers were condemned, you know, sent to the gulag, um, driven to suicide. Some were even executed. Um, even writing for oneself was dangerous. Um, I wrote my first poem when I was 16, uh, on my 16th birthday in 1978. Uh, I was lying in bed, polishing my poem, when I heard the door banging, and some Red Guards had come to raid our flat, and if they had seen my poem, I would get into trouble, and my family would get into trouble. So I had to quickly rush to the bathroom, uh, to tear up my poem and flush it down the toilet. And so that ended my first venture in writing. W- but the desire to write never left me. So in the following years, when I was working as a peasant and as a barefoot doctor, as a s- mm, a steelworker and electrician, or when I was spreading the manure on the paddy fields and, um, um, checking electricity supplies on top of the electricity poles, I was always writing in my head with an imaginary pen. Um, but I couldn't write in China. When I came to Britain, I, for 10 years, I didn't want to write. And then my mother came to stay with me in 1988, and first time, she told me the stories of, um, of her life and stories of my grandmother, and then while I was listening to my mother, um, I thought, "I- I must write all this down." And then I realized that how much I wanted to be a writer and how much I had always wanted to be a writer. And so, um, I... When... Uh, after my mother left, I transcribed the tapes that she left for me, 60 hours of tape recordings, and then I wrote Wild Swans, um, which was published in 1991 first, um, and I became a writer.

Dwarkesh Patel 10:37 Yes. And, um, uh, the- the- the- saying you became a writer is understating it. The global impact of glo- uh, Wild Swans has been, um, tremendous. And in fact, I, you know, I, um... A former guest of mine, uh, Sarah Payne, recommended it to me, and I read it, and it- it- it's the- it's the most moving book I've ever read. It's- it's truly tremendous. Let me begin by asking what it was like growing up there in terms of the psychology of living in a totalitarian system? You mentioned in the book that until very late, you could not even bring yourself to question Mao despite seeing the consequences of his policies and the cult of personality that was there. Um, t- tell me about the psychology of living in a system like that.

Jung Chang 11:21 Well, when I was growing up in China, um, and, you know, we were all subject to intense brainwashing and indoctrination. Uh, when we were children, Mao was, we were told... You know, M- sorry, Mao was like our god, and if we wanted to say, "What I say is true," we would say, "I swear to Chairman Mao."

Dwarkesh Patel 11:46 Mm-hmm.

Jung Chang 11:46 So Mao was a... Mao had, um, been given this godlike status.

Dwarkesh Patel 11:52 Yeah.

Jung Chang 11:53 Um, so... And also, at the same time, we could see, um, how dangerous it was to question Mao.... you know these, in China, there were these periodical political campaigns, and many people were victimized. And the biggest crime was to question Mao.

Dwarkesh Patel 12:14 Mmm.

Jung Chang 12:15 Um, and my father, mm, in the Cultural Revolution, s- suffered tremendously. Um, and it was also because he had so questioned Mao. So when I wrote my poem when I was 16 years old, I had already, um, started to doubt and to dread the society I was in. And we were always told, you know, a socialist China was paradise on Earth. And I, I thought on that day actually, um, "If this is paradise, what then is hell?" Because my parents were away being detained. Um, my grandmother was weeping next door, because she's heard, you know, these ghastly things that were being done to my mother. Um, so I questioned the society, but Mao never entered my mind, and he was beyond questioning. And this may be difficult for people-

Dwarkesh Patel 13:23 Mmm.

Jung Chang 13:23 ... to, to understand maybe, I mean, in the West. Um, but in China, in those days, um, there were two most important things that enabled this brainwashing. One is the complete isolation of the society from the outside world, from alternative information, and from any other information. Even parents never told their children, uh, you know, things that were different from the party line, because they were worried about the future of their children, and they were worried that if ch- um, children blabbed, it would be disastrous for the children as well as for the family. Um, so no alternative information. And the other is terror, this intense terror, um, which, um, really, really scared people into suppressing any unorthodox thoughts. Um, so I was living in that kind of, uh, society. And it took me a long time to question Mao. Um, since my, mm, birthday, 16th birthday thought in 198- 68, um, for many years, I blamed what was happening in China to Madame Mao and to the so-called the Gang of Four, which were basically assistants of Mao's. Um, but I never dared to question Mao. Um, and then I remember very well, 1976, I had learned a little English, and a friend showed me a copy of Newsweek, and there was an article about Mao, and there were two little pictures with the caption, "Madame Mao is Mao's eyes, ears, and mouth." And suddenly, you know, Mao's name was spelled out for me. And I suddenly realized, of course, it was Mao. You know, mm, without Mao, mm, none of this could have happened, and Mao was responsible. And, uh, you know, I'm, uh, intelligent person, but it took me eight years-

Dwarkesh Patel 15:49 Yeah.

Jung Chang 15:49 ... even from the moment I said to myself, "I dislike this society," to the moment that I felt Mao was responsible.

Dwarkesh Patel 15:58 You mentioned that your father, uh, w- was purged because of his criticism, uh, of the government at the time. And, in fact, your father's story, uh, through the book is, you know, a sort of tragic tale that, um... But the, uh, what I found, uh, interesting was that the way he criticized the party was-

Jung Chang 16:18 Mm-hmm.

Dwarkesh Patel 16:18 ... to go through the official mechanism. He wrote a letter to Mao, which suggests that he, even then, still believed that sort of the mechanism of the party worked and that, you know, it would be imagining like somebody has a problem with North Korean government today and he then writes a letter to Kim Jong-un, you know, which is, obviously you're going to get, uh, in trouble for that. So, um, tell me about how your father thought about that. And in retrospect, how should a high official, like your fa- your father was the governor of, uh, Sichuan Province, which you said 90 million people-

Jung Chang 16:46 Wasn't a governor, sorry.

Dwarkesh Patel 16:48 Oh.

Jung Chang 16:48 My father was the governor of a region-

Dwarkesh Patel 16:50 Oh, okay.

Jung Chang 16:51 ... in the, in, uh, initially, and then by the time of the Cultural Revolution, um, in 1966, he was the di- head of a department-

Dwarkesh Patel 17:02 Oh, I see.

Jung Chang 17:02 ... uh, of the, of the Sichuan, well, party, government, whatever they were.

Dwarkesh Patel 17:07 Yeah.

Jung Chang 17:07 Not the same.

Dwarkesh Patel 17:08 A high official.

Jung Chang 17:09 A high official.

Dwarkesh Patel 17:10 What, what should he have done when he realized things were going...

Jung Chang 17:13 Well, there was nothing one could do. I mean, if you tried to say your- spell out your thoughts to, uh, other people, you will be instantly denounced and instantly, uh, you know, publicly executed. I mean, nobody was allowed to say anything against Mao. Um, my father... And, and theoretically, in the charter of the Communist Party, a party member had the right to write to the leadership. So my father was using that as, as the kind of, uh, theoretically permitted way to voice his dissent. Um, so that's why he wrote to Mao. And in any case, the, all these things, the ho- atro- atrocities, the violence, I mean, only Mao could stop them.Um, so writing to Mao was the, was the only way, um, was the only way he could express his opinion. And of course, he also, uh, said something, you know, in the context of the denunciation meetings. But if there were not, um, there were outbursts at denunciation meetings-

Dwarkesh Patel 18:31 Right.

Jung Chang 18:31 ... rather than his well-thought-out-

Dwarkesh Patel 18:35 Sure.

Jung Chang 18:35 ... expression of dissent.

Dwarkesh Patel 18:37 So, th- this is, uh, this is something that I thought was, um, confusing when reading accounts about the Cultural Revolution, is China as a society, you, you know, they've re- they've rebelled in the past. They rebelled against the emperors. They rebelled against the Japanese occupation. They, th- the nationalists were in, uh, at one point in charge of lots part- parts of China. The communists rebelled against them. How was Mao able to instill a regime where that became unthinkable, uh, despite the fact that it was an incredibly chaotic and destabilizing time? How did the Chinese, which, uh, who as you have a great sense of history, how would they allow this to happen?

Jung Chang 19:13 Mm. Well, that's a very (laughs) good question. That's the, is the key of a communist society, of a totalitarian society, is the con- the control, the organization. I mean, neither the emperors nor any other rulers under the, the nationalist, under Chiang Kai-shek, was China so thoroughly organized down to the grassroots, controlled by layers of party organizations. Um, it was, um, it was totally thorough. That's why the 20th century, totalitarianism was very different from the previous-

Dwarkesh Patel 19:58 Mm.

Jung Chang 19:58 ... authoritarianism. I mean, the key was the control.

Dwarkesh Patel 20:02 Mm.

Jung Chang 20:02 Is the, uh, this total control, um, of a society and with the power highly concentrated at the very top, the one person.

Dwarkesh Patel 20:13 Mm-hmm. The thing that's really interesting is M- Mao is obviously a person who doesn't understand economics, and we'll talk about the Great Leap Forward and the disastrous consequences it had because of his m- um, c- complete ignorance, uh, when it comes to, um, you know, economics and industry and things like that. But what he did seem to have an incredible sense for, and, uh, Stalin and other totalitarian leaders as well, is the psychology of people and how to organize a society that has 800 million people, how to organize it so that... You know every society has petty, sadistic, uh, arrogant, uh, and c- cowardly people and how to organize them so that they're elevated and you use them to your advantage so that there's no nook and cranny in the entire society where a single person can be a, has a dissenting voice or even have an independent life. M- maybe you can talk about the commune life and the way in which... How can you possibly have a society of 800 million people where each person is under such strict totalitarian control? How, how is that even possible?

Jung Chang 21:16 The thing is that in the Cultural Revolution, for example, Mao used the, the young people and used the, the bad things in their nature, they're prone to violence, um, d- destructive, um, you know, sadistic. I mean, any society there were these people.

Dwarkesh Patel 21:35 Right.

Jung Chang 21:35 But they were given license-

Dwarkesh Patel 21:37 Mm-hmm.

Jung Chang 21:37 ... to indulge their bad instincts in the Cultural Revolution. Now, this took place for a couple of years in the Cultural Revolution. Then Mao reined them in y- by using the army and the Red Guards, the former Red Guards particularly, the most militant, most aggressive, most sadistic and violent ones were dispersed, and they were sent to the villages and to the mountains. I mean, the disobeyed, the dis- disobedient ones were condemned themselves. I mean, they became the targets-

Dwarkesh Patel 22:19 Mm.

Jung Chang 22:20 ... of the second round of purges, so to speak. And all the time, Mao made sure that the barrel of the gun was in his hand, the army. So he always needed this person to control the army for him to make sure he could wreak havoc and maintain control. And he always used Lin Biao until 1970. Uh, Lin Biao was completely cynical. Um, he would come to Mao's rescue when there was dissent from Mao's other colleagues, like during the famine and when Mao started the Cultural Revolution. And until the day that he fell out with Mao, um, which was why Mao was suddenly a bit lost, because he'd lost his, his, the arm with which he controlled the army. And s- and that, and so that's why in 1972 after Lin Biao died trying to flee to, uh, out of China, um, things suddenly became better. And then because the Mao had to rely on another person to control the army for him, and this other person was Deng Xiaoping. And then suddenly the u- uni- universities began to reopen. Things were much better from 1972.

Dwarkesh Patel 23:57 Yeah. Um, and, and by the way, this is a great instance of as soon as Mao dies, the Gang of Four is rounded up and arrested, and the Cultural Revolution stops. So which goes to show you that this was Mao's doing.

Jung Chang 24:11 Mm.

Dwarkesh Patel 24:11 This is also, um, an interesting example where, you know, you have these cases where, uh, whether it's Stalin in Russia or Mao in China, where when the tyrant dies, you know, the system automatically improves because nobody else is as crazy as that guy. What does this show us about, uh, if Kim Jong Un died? Would we, should we expect a system or sort of reversion to a more sane set of things? Again and again we see tyrants die and things are not as bad as they used to be.

Jung Chang 24:40 Well, I haven't studied North Korea so I don't know the inner workings-

Dwarkesh Patel 24:44 Right.

Jung Chang 24:44 ... of the regime. I mean, in that sort of a Sta- Stalinist society, really so much depend-

Dwarkesh Patel 24:51 Yeah.

Jung Chang 24:51 ... depends, depends on one person. I mean, the Kim dynasty, they have arranged their kind of succession. The first, uh, Kim, uh, Kim Il-sung died and then his son succeeded and the grandson then succeeded.

Dwarkesh Patel 25:08 Oh.

Jung Chang 25:08 Now it seems that the grandson, uh, has begun to look into the succession of him by grooming perhaps, I don't know, his daughter or someone close, close to him. Uh, I mean, Stalin, um, didn't, couldn't do that, couldn't do the family dynast- dynasty thing, um, I think partly because his children were not like the Kim children. I mean, Mao, mm, also, I mean, Mao basically, he only cared about how he could enjoy life while he was alive, indulging his, his desires, which was mainly power. Um, and he didn't care about, um, um, what, what, what comes after him. I mean, he was completely material- materialistic, you know, in that philosophical way, in that sort of way. S- sorry, for example, when he was in Russia, in Moscow, he, when he visited Lenin's tomb, he said, "It's all very well, you know, we are visiting Lenin's tomb, but Lenin can't feel anything. He's dead. So it doesn't matter, it means nothing to Lenin." Um, so he... You know Mao, when he died, he didn't leave a well-struc- structure. He didn't even sort of, didn't even care about his own legacy.

Dwarkesh Patel 26:43 Well, I thought the entire purpose of the Cultural Revolution was that he was concerned that hi- because of the Great Leap Forward, that his, his legacy would be destroyed in the way that Khrushchev denounced Stalin, and therefore, that that was the entire point of the Cultural Revolution, was to protect his legacy.

Jung Chang 26:59 Um, that may be a factor, but the main factor was Mao's policy that had led to the great famine of nearly, you know, around 40 million-

Dwarkesh Patel 27:12 Yeah.

Jung Chang 27:12 ... deaths of the people, uh, was so unpopular that his number two, Liu Shaoqi then spoke up against him. Again, Liu... There was no way even for Mao's number two to topple him, and because basically the, you know, they, uh, under this tyrant, his colleagues couldn't get organized, um, to, which was necessary to topple him. They couldn't lay their hands on the army which was controlled by Lin Biao. So what Liu Shaoqi did was that in January 1962, mm, when Mao had wanted to continue his policy of exporting food in exchange for arms industries to build, in order for him to build a superpower so he could dominate the world, and Liu wanted to stop that. And he used the basic occasion of a party congress to speak to the 7,000 party officials in that conference hall, and my father was in there. I mean, so they, these party officials were, you know, spread all, all over China. They were, the vast, vast majority of them were against Mao's policies that had led to the famine and... Um, so they suddenly found Liu Shaoqi as their champion and so together, they managed to stop Mao's policies which was how the famine was stopped from 1962. And Mao was furious. He, he didn't like being thwarted and being ambushed, which he called an ambush. This was why he launched the Cultural Revolution in 1966 to punish Liu Shaoqi and the party officials. Um, I mean, so that's how this Great Purge took place. For Mao, it was much less of a... Um, it was calculated because he wanted to have his way, he wanted to purge these people, but there was also the gut feeling of revenge, and he wanted to revenge on his number two who died in the most appalling way-

Dwarkesh Patel 29:42 Yeah.

Jung Chang 29:42 ... in the Cultural Revolution.

Dwarkesh Patel 29:43 So, uh, so sorry if this question sounds naive but if you have somebody like Liu Shaoqi and Deng Xiaoping and these other party officials who are seeing what is happening, and in the case of Liu Shaoqi, he was denounced before he was, um, before he was, uh, he was officially purged, uh, and removed from power, right? So there was a time when he knew he was going to be purged but he was still in power-Uh, it's confusing from the outside of why at that time, you don't, um ... If you can't control the army because Lin Biao was in control of it, at- at that point you don't, I don't know, try to tell the people what is actually happening-

Jung Chang 30:18 Yeah.

Dwarkesh Patel 30:18 ... go to The People's Daily and say, "Here, you've got to publish this article about what is act- what Mao is actually like." Go to the, all the communist officials, organize a coup. Why didn't that happen?

Jung Chang 30:26 Well, it did happen. While in the, while in the Mao biography, there were, um ... I have a couple of chapters, um, about Liu Shaoqi, exactly what you are suggesting, what he should have done. I mean, I mean, but I'm going to expand it in my next book. Um, basically, Liu Shaoqi knew Mao was going to purge him.

Dwarkesh Patel 30:49 Yeah.

Jung Chang 30:49 In 1962, after the Congress, 'cause he'd ambushed Mao. And so, he'd had started to build his own power base. Eh, first of all, by stopping the famine, making himself popular among the party officials, 'cause only they mattered.

Dwarkesh Patel 31:10 Yeah.

Jung Chang 31:10 The ordinary people were too far away from power. Um, and so Liu Shaoqi became very popular. In 1965, a few years later, when Mao wa- tried to purge Liu Shaoqi, he found he couldn't do it. I mean, Liu Shaoqi had been powerful enough to put up a resistance. I mean, there was a lot of ... Um, I mean, then Mao did this horse trading with Lin Biao, and so Lin Biao spoke, you know, very forcefully in support of Mao. Um, so there was all that going on. And why ... Um, um, Liu Shaoqi was already ... Um, es- uh, sorry. Then Mao used the Red Guards to create such violence and terror in China from 1966 to basic 19- for a few months before he even mentioned Liu Shaoqi's name, as you said. But Liu Shaoqi was already under house arrest.

Dwarkesh Patel 32:17 Yeah.

Jung Chang 32:17 Uh, I mean, it's just he didn't make it public. So Mao first of all created this gigantic, um, upheaval in China, mm, in order to, in order to create the kind of terror that people would only obey him, not Liu Shaoqi, not even the Party.

Dwarkesh Patel 32:39 Mm-hmm.

Jung Chang 32:39 But only him. Uh, that's how he operated. Um, so that's why, in the Cultural Revolution, his first victims were school teachers. You know, I was in a secondary school in China. I saw how the teachers were being abused, beaten up, denounced, driven to suicide, and so on. When Mao actually didn't even dislike teachers. I mean, he said, uh, for example, to Edgar Snow that, um, he'd like to be known as a great teacher or whatever. He was a s- school teacher in his youth. And he didn't even ca- he didn't care about them, and ... But he just used them because the teachers were the obvious target to excite, to arouse the- the, um, the passion, the violence, the atrocities in the young Red Guards. Um, and so- so that's how he ... He used them as a victim in order to rouse the victimizers, which were the school children.

Dwarkesh Patel 33:54 Yeah.

Jung Chang 33:55 Um, that's how he- he maneuvered. He spent quite a few years, um, before he ... Liu Shaoqi was, um ... Before the atmosphere was ripe for him to be able to

Jung Chang 34:09 purge Liu.

Dwarkesh Patel 34:10 So I- I ... Maybe for context, it'll be helpful first to th- start talking about The Great Leap Forward. The number you gave was around 40 million people, and this- this becomes a statistic for people. You just think, "Oh, 40 million people died. Whatever, it's a number." Um, I- I want to make it concrete for people what it ... How much tragedy and suffering is involved in just a single person dying from starvation. C- can you talk about the months-long agonizing process of what starvation is, when you see it happening to you, your family, your children, your spouse, your village, uh, and what peasant life was like during- during The Great Leap Forward?

Jung Chang 34:49 Well, during The Great Leap Forward, m- my family was among the privileged.

Dwarkesh Patel 34:57 Yeah. Yeah.

Jung Chang 34:57 So I personally didn't starve, but there was a lot of starvation around us. Um, for example, I remember when I went to school, I was mm- ... I was eight. Uh, I was eight, nine, and when I went to school, one- one day, I was munching a steamed bread. And a so- a young lad, a child, a boy darted over and snatched the bread from my mouth and I s- then he stuffed those into his mouth and disappeared. And then afterwards, I told ... When I, mm, told my father, m- my father was very sad and he sort of ... He s- um, touched my head and said, "You know, you are very lucky. You know, other children are starving." Another thing that happened near home was our, mm, our maid, our, you know, domestic help would come from a village.... and her family had been classified as a landlord, which was one, one of the categories of the desirables, destined for discrimination, um, and, um, horrible treatment. And, um, I remember very well, one day sh- she, she, after visit to her family, she came back and, um, she was weeping, and I remember we lived in this courtyard, and she had so much flood- uh, floods of tears that the frogs that were actually thriving in the courtyard were leaping up and down. So that was in my memory as a child. And, uh, m- my grandmother, mm, with whom she was very close, uh, was sitting in a mosquito net and also crying and said, "The communists are good, except all these people are dead." I mean, so I, I was... because th- this was so much against my indoctrination about the communists. That's one of the few things I heard that made me really scared. Mm. And, um, and then, and before she, um, her whole family died. In fact, before that, her mother came to see her to report the news that her father and, um, the brothers or something had died. And her mother, as soon as she came into the house, she threw herself on the, on the ground and then called out to my mother, and said, you know, "Thank you," you know, "for having saved my daughter." Otherwise, you know, they, um... she would have been dead.

Dwarkesh Patel 37:58 Yeah.

Jung Chang 37:59 I mean, after... soon after the mother went back, she died herself.

Dwarkesh Patel 38:05 Right.

Jung Chang 38:05 But when she came, she was already like a skeleton, you know, as though any wind could blow her away.

Dwarkesh Patel 38:13 Yeah.

Jung Chang 38:13 It's just unterr- terrible. And one thing that made my father speak up during the Cultural Revolution, which is, uh, only a few years later, was, um, he felt so guilty-

Dwarkesh Patel 38:27 Yeah.

Jung Chang 38:27 ... and he volunteered to go to stay in a village. Um, and th- and then he saw these horrible things, which I didn't see. I mean, he... and, and one day, a man was sort of walking on the ridges of the paddy fields, um, unsteadily, and suddenly he disappeared. And my father rushed over and this man, um, had, had died.

Dwarkesh Patel 38:54 Right.

Jung Chang 38:54 Um, it's just like that. Just... my father, just for his month of living in, in the, uh, in the village, he was... he came back, um, very seriously famished and suffering from this illness called enema, or s- it was-

Dwarkesh Patel 39:13 Ema-

Jung Chang 39:14 ... which was because of lack of food.

Dwarkesh Patel 39:16 Yes.

Jung Chang 39:16 Um, and, um, oh, yes, and my... even my family, and we all, n- n- and we all drank this, this little thing, this little seed that fed on urine. I remember we all had to collect urine. We don't pour, throw away our urine. We collect urine in order to grow this seed, which was supposed to have a lot of, um, um, vitamin or a lot of some, some nutrition that could s- me- uh, sustain people. And I remember how revolting the taste was. I mean, w- I didn't suffer much because my family put all our food together and the adults were starving. I knew my mother, my father and my... particularly my grandmother, um, in order for, for us children, um, not, not to starve. And also now, today, if you read, if you see the memoirs of China's super-riches-

Dwarkesh Patel 40:23 Yeah.

Jung Chang 40:24 ... I mean, I think most of them had memory of the... o- of my generation, of the generation who had lived in the countryside. They all, um, remembered being hungry.

Dwarkesh Patel 40:37 Yeah.

Jung Chang 40:38 They... as, as children when... how hungry they were in the villages and that, that sort of was partly what gave them the impetus to, to change.

Dwarkesh Patel 40:49 Mm. Oh, y- you know, while we're on this, let me just ask you about this before we return to The Great Leap Forward, now that you've mentioned it.

Jung Chang 40:56 Okay.

Dwarkesh Patel 40:56 So, Xi Jinping actually had a v- a very similar experience to you in that his father is also a high communist official. He also gets denounced and purged. Xi Jinping is also... has to go through these denunciation meetings and then he has to work as a peasant, um, and in fact, there's a story where he tries to come back, but his mother... uh, to get a meal from his family but is- he's supposed to be an exile, but his mother then chases him away and denounces him and, you know, so it's like gruesome stuff, right? And then when he gives these speeches, he talks about, "We need to return to Marxism-Leninism and Mao Zedong Thought." How is it possible that somebody who has gone through your experience c- c- can still have any sort of sympathy left for Mao or Marxism-Leninism? I, I, I actually don't understand. I'm, I'm trying to understand.

Jung Chang 41:42 Well, then, I'm afraid I- I don't understand either. I mean, don't fully understand. There was... and, I mean, everybody is different. Um, a lot of people had similar experiences, um, and they still, um, would sing Mao's praise, um, and wanted to return to the Mao era. I think only... th- m- you know, not seriously return to Mao era, but they would dreamed of the... perhaps the type, you know, the culture or something of, of the Maoist era, but not really. I mean-Well, everybody was different, but I mean, there were more indoctrinated people than others under the same indoctrination system. I mean, maybe he was just not, he was just, um, more thoroughly indoctrinated and there were many reasons and among the communist officials whose parents suffered the children of, um, a lot of them regard, identify Mao with the rule of the Communist Party, um, and they do- they don't want the Communist Party to be discredited, so because they are the beneficiaries-

Dwarkesh Patel 42:59 Mmm.

Jung Chang 42:59 ... of communist rule. I mean, in the, mmm, this is not mis- not necessarily Xi, he, um, but- but y- in a more general sense because I haven't studied Xi. Again, I don't know the inner workings of the- of the- of the regime, but I think a lot of children of the communi- old communists, in spite of the sufferings from their parents, they still want China to be under this one-party dictatorship. And I think one reason now is this made them a lot of money.

Dwarkesh Patel 43:39 Mmm.

Jung Chang 43:39 I mean, the ... all the corruptions or the, you know, whatever, if you are- if you're associated with the regime, you stood to gain, you stand to gain.

Dwarkesh Patel 43:50 Yeah.

Jung Chang 43:50 So, I think that- that is one very important reason.

Dwarkesh Patel 43:55 Yeah.

Jung Chang 43:55 Um, which would not, they would not have all the privileges if the party ended its- its one-party dictatorship.

Dwarkesh Patel 44:05 Yeah. Which ... And you know, in no other society is a tyrant like Mao still respected by the current regime. With Germany, nobody's- nobody's, you know, yearning for the days of Hitler. Uh, there's a few people in Russia, for example, Stalinism is ... because of Putin's, um, changing of the curriculum, but it- it's not a common thing. Whereas in China, the regime officially, uh, derives its legitimacy from Mao. It hangs his picture off Tiananmen Square. And this is, uh, this is doubly insidious, not only because this is a gruesome mass murderer, killed 50 million people, more than anybody else in history, but because his victims were the people of China, the people who are expected to, um, bow down to his figure and respect him are his own victims or the children of his victims. It would be like if a picture of Hitler hung off the Temple Mount in Israel or something, right?

Jung Chang 45:02 Yeah.

Dwarkesh Patel 45:02 So, it ... I mean, how ... Yeah, I- I guess maybe the question then is how do the Chinese people who ... This happened to the Chinese people in living memory, how are they okay with having the figure of Mao up on Tiananmen Square? Why is there still respect for Mao in China?

Jung Chang 45:19 Well, first of all, um, China, as you said, is still a communist regime.

Dwarkesh Patel 45:25 Yeah.

Jung Chang 45:27 For many years, I mean, that was underplayed, partly because the memory is fresh, and partly in the 1980s and '90s particularly, the memories were fresh. I think that was probably the main reason. Um, and gradually after that, um, the memories of pain were gradually fading, um, and particularly a- a generation, two generations have grown up without suffering.

Dwarkesh Patel 45:58 Mm-hmm.

Jung Chang 45:59 And so given that there is no religion for people to worship, you know, unlike any time in Chinese history, and before Mao there was Confucianism.

Dwarkesh Patel 46:13 Yeah.

Jung Chang 46:13 You- you could have something to hang on to.

Dwarkesh Patel 46:16 Yeah.

Jung Chang 46:16 And then there was Mao, Maoism, I mean, which didn't- didn't- didn't obviously openly endorse violence and atrocities.

Dwarkesh Patel 46:28 Yeah.

Jung Chang 46:28 It could sound quite attractive, um, which was why Mao's Little Red Book was invoked for a period in the West. Um, and so people hang on to that, and in the post-Mao time, money was the god, but m- some people, a lot of people made money, but a lot of people lost money. Not only lost money, but had, you know, was, um, was disadvantaged in this money is god society. I mean, you know, in the society where there was no proper regulations and law and people who were not very savvy with money lost out. They were conned, they were, you know, they were whatever. So, there were some people who probably yearned for a more simple life where, you know, you were given what you were given. You ... They wouldn't like to be starved and they wouldn't like to be a political victim, but a lot of people could live a very simple life of being just fed. Um, I mean, there may be a certain nostalgia.

Dwarkesh Patel 47:46 Mmm.

Jung Chang 47:46 Um, but the most important thing, of course, is the promotion of the regime, I mean, particularly since Xi came to power. I mean, you know, you were- you were taught from school all these lies about Mao, um, and so people grew up with this, um, regarding Mao as god, like back to my childhood.

Dwarkesh Patel 48:12 Yeah.Yeah. How, what has been the impact of your books? You know Wild Swan sold 50 million copies. Your biography of Mao is also a bestseller. I know they're banned in China, but have they secretly been able to access... How has that revised their understanding of their own history?

Jung Chang 48:29 Well, when these books were first published-

Dwarkesh Patel 48:32 Yeah.

Jung Chang 48:32 ... in 19, the 1990s and year 2000s, there were lot of wo- lots of, lots and lots of ways to get them into China. Hong Kong, for example, and Taiwan, um, pirated editions, which there were many, many, many. Um, but now, I mean since particularly Mr. Xi came to power in 20, like, 2012, 2013, um, China has a total clampdown or of banned, of banned literature. And you could go to jail if you, um, and for an official to possess these books, I mean banned books, including mine, you, you, you could face, you know, ghastly punishments which you, you don't want to face. And for the general population as well. And when you enter China now, you see on this screen, uh, warnings of not to bring in bad literature.

Dwarkesh Patel 49:36 Mm-hmm.

Jung Chang 49:37 Um, and, and not, not, particularly not to bring, um, books that, um, said not very nice things about the previous revolutionary leaders, or, or revolutionary martyrs, or someone. So, total, total clampdown, forbidding of people doing research on history, trying to understand history, um, which, um, which created another generation of brainwashed people.

Dwarkesh Patel 50:12 Mm-hmm.

Jung Chang 50:12 And there was one, also one very important thing. The Chinese are very pragmatic, and they don't want trouble. They're very different from a lot of other peoples. Um, and so parents who exper- who had bad experiences under Mao tend not to tell their children. And so there are a lot of children who were gen- just genuinely not getting any alternative information, um, mm, from different from the, uh, from the official line.

Dwarkesh Patel 50:48 Mm-hmm. Yeah, I do want to get back to the actual, uh, Great Leap and Cultural Revolution in a second, but on this theme, um, you know, Xi Jinping's own daughters got, studied at Harvard. A bunch of Chinese elites are, their kids are studying in America. Uh, when they take power in a generation or two, will they still be devoted Marxist-Leninists? I can't imagine them having, coming back from Harvard and then, uh, still believing in...

Jung Chang 51:15 (laughs) Well, I mean, in the West, in American universities...

Dwarkesh Patel 51:21 Yeah.

Jung Chang 51:22 ... there were a lot of Marxists.

Dwarkesh Patel 51:24 (laughs)

Jung Chang 51:24 (laughs) I mean, you know, a lot of people, if they're interested in the subject-

Dwarkesh Patel 51:28 Sure. (laughs)

Jung Chang 51:29 ... I mean they come to the West to have their views confirmed. And Maoists, you know, for example, when our Mao biography was published, there were some academics, uh, who publ- even published a book, a collection of their criticisms against our book (laughs) . And the title was, Was Mao Really a Monster?

Dwarkesh Patel 51:51 Yeah.

Jung Chang 51:52 I mean, you know, the preface was written by someone who was a, was a senior lecturer for, in LSE, London School of Economics. I mean, the language was Maoist language. You know, Mao was a great, a great, uh, revolution, a great Marxist-Leninist and so on. I mean, so, I mean... (laughs) I mean the West would certainly not put off the, this, um, put off a potential Mao, uh, successor.

Dwarkesh Patel 52:24 Yeah. And, uh, uh, I'm glad you brought that up actually, because I read that book actually in preparation for this interview, and, because I wanted to see if there were criticisms that I, I should be aware of. And honestly, uh, the, I mean there were certain quibbles about the, the part before Mao got into power, about The Long March and stuff, which I don't know enough about to comment. But the actual, when they start talking about the important things, the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution, they're not at all contesting the facts. They're, it is the most, um, uh, the, the most sort of, um, excusatory language of... It is the same sort of stuff, by the way, that is said about Cuba and Stalinist Russia, of, "Well, the literacy went up," and this and that. Um, North Korea today has high literacy. Are you gonna say that North Korea was okay? Did the ex- Uh, actually, can you talk about this? What I- what do you think explains the Western, uh, some parts of the left who want to find excuses for these regimes, whether it's Venezuela or whether Edgard Snow, uh, Edward Snow writing his, um, book about Mao. There's a sort of need to excuse these, um, these communist regimes and socialist regimes. Wh- what, why are, what explains this?

Jung Chang 53:34 (sighs) From what I know, I think there, there were people who had illusions about these regimes. And a lot of the academics, um, who were kind of, um, controlling the faculties, um, to do with Mao and in universities, probably had got their, um, their, their, their sort of illusions because they had access to, um, Edgar Snow's, um, book. They were radicals in the 1960s. I mean, they, you know, they want to hang onto their own... No, sorry, let me just not get into this. The subject... Sorry. I'm- I'm faltering on this because...... I don't know. I don't know why, but I mean, I don't know why, I don't know why they are like that. I mean, they, they, they don't, they don't know the facts. They, they, they don't care to know the facts. And also, I think probably some people think, "Oh, China has always been awful, you know, under the emperors and so on." And so they n- somehow the Orientals, uh, must feel different today.

Dwarkesh Patel 54:50 Mm-hmm.

Jung Chang 54:51 Um, and I know when, you know, when Deng Xiaoping visited America in 1979 and established diplomatic relations with America, um, with Carter, mm, and, um, he, he was seated at a banquet with some, uh, um, with some, uh, some deluded film star-

Dwarkesh Patel 55:15 Mm-hmm.

Jung Chang 55:15 ... or something. And then, then people were saying to him that when they were visit- when they visited China, um, they'd seen professors, uh, who'd been subject to forced labor. Mm. And but they told, they were told that they enjoyed it-

Dwarkesh Patel 55:34 Mm.

Jung Chang 55:34 ... because all these hardships and being in a labor camp had turned them into the new men.

Dwarkesh Patel 55:41 Yeah.

Jung Chang 55:42 And Deng Xiaoping just said they were lying.

Dwarkesh Patel 55:45 Yeah.

Jung Chang 55:46 Um, but I mean, they were lying, I mean, to the Westerners, um, who, who didn't know the truth, just took their words for it.

Dwarkesh Patel 55:57 Yeah.

Jung Chang 55:57 Um, they, they didn't know, people couldn't tell them the real truth.

Dwarkesh Patel 56:02 Yeah. E- e- even in, um, in the case of Stalin in Russia, there was a famous New York Times reporter who was doing the Russian coverage for, uh, the New York Times, and the reports would come in about the, uh, the Ukrainian famine or these other atrocities, and he would write his columns, you know, "No, this is not happening." I think there was a famous headline that says, "Russians are hungry but not starving." (laughs) Um, oh, so actually let's talk about, uh, Deng Xiaoping, and I want to ask about... So during the Cultural Revolution, he is exiled and purged, and his, his so- son, because he is known-

Jung Chang 56:39 Yes.

Dwarkesh Patel 56:39 ... as a, a, I don't know what, the Black, um, but basically-

Jung Chang 56:42 Oh, the, The Five, uh, uh, the Blacks.

Dwarkesh Patel 56:44 Yeah.

Jung Chang 56:44 You know, that's one, one of the racist side of the-

Dwarkesh Patel 56:49 Yeah.

Jung Chang 56:49 ... of the Chinese society, Black is bad.

Dwarkesh Patel 56:51 Right.

Jung Chang 56:51 So his son was one of the five Blacks.

Dwarkesh Patel 56:53 Yeah.

Jung Chang 56:54 And then, you know, so

Dwarkesh Patel 56:55 His son is chased out of a window by Red Guards. The doctors refuse to operate on him because he's Deng Xiaoping's son, so he's paralyzed for life. Um, and he's forced to do manual labor. This guy who was basically kind of running China under Mao, he's doing manual labor out in the countryside. When he comes back into power after the Cultural Revolution, how... I, from r- the outside, I don't understand how he, uh, doesn't immediately denounce Mao and talk about the horrible things he did. How, how did he allow... He, there's a quote from him, he says, "We must be careful not to overemphasize the crimes of Mao," or something. Um, for somebody who was so personally harmed by Mao, how is he not immediately condemning Mao?

Jung Chang 57:37 Th- this is something I don't understand, and I also think he made a big mistake.

Dwarkesh Patel 57:43 Yeah.

Jung Chang 57:44 If he had dissociated from Mao like Khrushchev-

Dwarkesh Patel 57:48 Yeah.

Jung Chang 57:48 ... had with Stalin, I mean, it would not have just been the right thing to do, but it would have been the popular thing to do.

Dwarkesh Patel 57:57 Mm-hmm.

Jung Chang 57:57 Because there is a ground, great ground swell of sentiment for denouncing Mao, or at least dis- dissociating from Mao. Not just from the population, from the victims, which virtually everybody was in China, but from the leading elite, from his co- most of his closest colleagues. I mean, for the few others who were in favor of Mao, he could easily have dealt with them like Khrushchev had dealt with the Stalinists, the hardliners.

Dwarkesh Patel 58:31 Yeah.

Jung Chang 58:32 But he chose not to. What got into his mind? I haven't studied him very carefully, but I, I did know something about him. I think, I think he, he was probably thinking that if you reject Mao, it's inevitable that communism will collapse in China.

Dwarkesh Patel 58:56 Mm-hmm.

Jung Chang 58:57 I mean, unlike Khrushchev's time in 1956, he could denounce Stalin without endangering communist rule in Russia. But Deng, at his time, could not, or at least probably he thought, could not have denounced Mao without endangering the rule of the party.

Dwarkesh Patel 59:22 Yeah.

Jung Chang 59:23 Because this, we're talking about 1980s, late '70s, '80s now. There is a ground... You know, it's near, it's Gorbachev's, near Gorbachev's time.

Dwarkesh Patel 59:33 Yeah.

Jung Chang 59:33 Um, so I think that's probably his devotion to the party.

Dwarkesh Patel 59:40 Yeah. And, but I think he, he might've been right in a... And then obviously, the, the point is that he would have been right to say that, "Well, this is actually inherent in the communist regime." In Russia, when... In the '80s when they have, uh, glasnost and perestroika and they talk openly about the gulag system, that is one of the main contributing factors, and people say, "Well, how can a regime that allowed this to happen be allowed to exist anymore? How can this be our governing regime?" And that does lead to the collapse.

Jung Chang 1:00:08 Yes, exactly, exactly, exactly. Which was why, by the way, Mr. Xi's argument-... I mean, because he was against Gorbachev, against the Perestroika and Glasnost.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:00:22 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:00:22 And he's, he's exactly that, I mean, the, the communist regime would collapse. I mean, that is, you know, in today's terms, that is the wealth, the money, you know, that associated with the power.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:00:39 Um, and, and in the book, you, uh, you point out that Mao was acting in his, uh, self-interest and selfishly doing all these things, but it, it seems to me that the- a strong, if not motivation, at least, uh, enabling factor and organizing factor is definitely provided by the ideologies of communism and socialism, which, um, which sort of organizes a society. Uh, otherwise it doesn't make sense to collectivize farms and to close down shops. And, uh, it also necessitates the, uh, purges because communism is a science. It has to work, and if it doesn't work, there must be internal capitalist saboteurs who must be, you know, condemned, brought out, and killed. Do you think that the... Isn't it the communism and socialism at the heart of the, heart of the issue here?

Jung Chang 1:01:26 I, I think some people undoubtedly think that way.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:01:30 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:01:30 But having researched Mao for 12 years, my conclusion about him was he was highly pragmatic and the communist ideology suited him. Um, I mean, he joined the communists, Communist Party, not because he was a passionate believer, but because it gave him a livelihood. I mean, he was asked to open a left-wing bookshop selling communist and left-wing literature, and his life changed. And before that, he was poverty-stricken. And then, and then that started his life. But I mean, the few things about the ideology that you just mentioned, for example, the collectivization.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:02:18 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:02:18 It's highly conducive to Mao's requirement-

Dwarkesh Patel 1:02:24 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:02:24 ... to Mao's... what Mao wanted, which was food. He wanted this food from the peasants. If they had been private farmers, they would farm their food first and, and pay tax, so to speak-

Dwarkesh Patel 1:02:39 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:02:39 ... pay to them, and then it's far more difficult to control these hundreds of millions of peasants than to organize them into units, into communes. Um, then it's much better to control. I mean, Mao said so himself, that they are the, the... you know, the... What is it? Say the great advantage of collectivization, the communes, it's easier to control, (speaks Mandarin) . Easy... So this was, um, not just an ideology, abstract ideology, but it's for, you know, for what he wanted to get.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:03:24 Yeah. But then at least we can say the, the... one of the problems with the ideology is that it attracts and is highly conducive to peop- to, um, opportunists like Mao and Stalin and, uh, the Kim family. But... So let's go back to the Great Leap Forward and to these communes. These communes are... Really, what it's like to be a peasant is like chattel slavery. Can you talk about the working conditions, how hard they worked while not being given food, um, the punishments? Tell, tell us more about what the peasant life was like.

Jung Chang 1:03:55 Well, I was working in the commune for several years-

Dwarkesh Patel 1:04:00 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:04:00 ... in the, in the Cultural Revolution in two places. And our lives consisted mainly of work. I mean, there were fixed hours. You were given... You were allocated food and, you know, fuel and other things, depending on how many hours you worked. So, so your life is, is centered on work. I mean, you know, they're... Um, everything, the commune controlled everything. If you want to travel, go somewhere, you need the commune to give you, um, a kind of note, a kind of passport to allow you to travel. Um, if you want to get married, you have to get permission from the commune. And during the famine, this is how Mao ensured that the peasants didn't rise up in arms because the control from the commune. I mean, there is a thing, um, they... Every now and then the regime would, would issue these stiff orders to stop peasants fleeing their villages. I mean, if they, the peasants did manage to flee into the cities and they beg, for example, for some food, the communes were told to get them back. So the commune is, is this thing way to control, to control our entire lives. And of course, when I was in the communes, I was, again, in a privileged position because when we s- were sent down from the cities, we were guaranteed a certain food. I mean, it's too complicated, the details. But basically, the communes is, is the organization. It may be in some ideology, but in reality, it's how the party controls China's 500 million peasants. I mean, there were only, I think, some, some... a few tens of thousands of communes. I mean, imagine this highly concentrated organization.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:06:13 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:06:14 So, people were no- no longer individual farmers-

Dwarkesh Patel 1:06:17 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:06:17 ... like, um, like what they were before the communist rule.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:06:21 And this is exactly also what happened in Russia. And you-

Jung Chang 1:06:25 The collectivization, yeah.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:06:26 And when the famine happens, again, they're not allowed to leave Ukraine. They, they're forced... There- there's roadblocks, so they're forced to starve there. Um, so you, uh, you have this really remarkable anecdote in the, uh, in the book about, um, talking to these peasants about what, um, life was like during the Great Leap Forward while, while you were working there, because now there's no fuel left. All the trees are taken down. And how at the time so many of the village starved, uh, you... Because they were all distracted keeping the furnaces. Talk about the... How the, the effort to double steel output and how, how that... What, what catastrophes that caused.

Jung Chang 1:07:00 Well, basically, um, Mao's ambition after he took power in China was to build a superpower-

Dwarkesh Patel 1:07:08 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:07:09 ... to, to, um, dominate the world. He needed to buy these machines, military-industrial complexes, mainly from Russia and from Eastern Europe.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:07:19 From Eastern Europe.

Jung Chang 1:07:20 But he didn't have the money to pay. China wasn't rich as today, so he exported food. So, he needed a lot of food. Whereas in China, traditionally, we didn't... We never produced enough food to feed the population. The emperors banned food export and bought a lot of food into China. I mean, so traditionally, China was a food importer for a few hundred years, and Mao stopped that. So, to start with, there was always a food problem-

Dwarkesh Patel 1:08:00 Mm-hmm.

Jung Chang 1:08:00 ... throughout his rule. Um, now, the Great Leap is basically to import vast quantities of, uh, technology and equipment of mainly from Russia. That's why it's called the Great Leap. He wanted to build an industrialized whatever system, um, in, in a few years, um, f- to be fast, fast, fast, you know?

Dwarkesh Patel 1:08:27 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:08:27 That, that's what he... What he said. I mean, that's why his demand for food was vastly elevated, Mao's demand for food. This food had to come from the peasants. I mean, so he basically seized this food to im- to export to Russia and Eastern Europe, knowing his people would die of starvation. I mean, there was a time Mao was... Well, kept saying seemingly philosophically, I mean, "Death is a good thing. If, if we don't have death, you know, m- we... And the, the Earth can't contain us." You know, these seemingly philosophical things which were taken at face value by some academics, uh, you know. But what he really... He said these things to his officials in order to harden their heart when they went to seize the food from the peasants, seeing how pitiful their conditions were. And that's the or- origin of the famine. It's as simple as that. It's food export. I mean, Liu Shaoqi, his number two and his main target in the Cultural Revolution, it was thanks to a visit back to his old village that made up his mind to stop Mao's policies, 'cause he went back to his village. His brother-in-law had died of starvation. His sister was on the edge of, of dying of starvation. He saw the villages, saw the just heartrending things, and then he, he... You know, he op- he opened them, opened the lid of, of a wok, a saucepan, and he saw there was nothing, just water, a few drops of grain. And he was... He, he did a very unusual thing, and he bowed to the peasants and just said, you know, "I'm very sorry." Uh, it was after this, in 1961, he made up his mind to stop Mao's policies, which led to the Cultural Revolution and his, his tragic death.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:10:41 And then you, you also talk in the book about how these peasants... Not only was all this grain being exported, which caused them to starve, but they weren't even allowed to harvest their grain because they had to t- Talk about the turning their own woks and their own stuff into iron and just spending time-

Jung Chang 1:10:58 Yeah.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:10:58 ... doing that instead of farming.

Jung Chang 1:11:00 So, Mao was... Mao was partly defeated by his own ignorance about economy. I mean, because if you... When you... When you want to build a modern s- super industry, you needed steel, and steel was the most important thing. And China's steel-producing capacities in the 1950s was very low. So, he had this idea of making the whole population to, to make steel. I mean, it's... It really is quite ridiculous-

Dwarkesh Patel 1:11:37 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:11:37 ... because I was at primary school. I was six years old. I was in the primary school, and I remember (laughs) that my main occupation was somehow my contribution to steel, which is every day we walked on the street trying to find the little nails, the cogs, something of steel to... And to hand in to our teachers because there is a backyard furnace in our school.... or the teachers had to, had to feed things into the furnace, um, bec- ... The furnace also had to be kept going 24 hours a day. You couldn't be, uh, you know, couldn't go off. I mean to feed that furnace consumed everything. I mean, in my village, I mean, they, we, we struggled every day to find a little fuel, when, you know, fast-forwarding to 1960s. And because the mountains which used to be covered with great trees have been laid bare to, for, for, for the fuel, to feed the backyard furnaces, um... And the teachers were, um, exhausted in my school, and so we were organized to babysit for them when I was a child. Um, it was just, it was hugely wasteful, hugely wasteful. I mean, this w- ... I mean because for all this effort, um, this was 1958, um, actually most of what the backyard furnaces, um, produced were completely useless.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:13:14 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:13:15 So he died, Mao died thinking of himself as a failure, because China was still poverty stricken at the time of his death, and he felt himself a failure. But he was partly sabotaged by his own ignorance-

Dwarkesh Patel 1:13:31 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:13:31 ... about the economy.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:13:33 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:13:33 Oh, the other thing about Mao's (laughs) ignorance was because food was so important, and because sparrows-

Dwarkesh Patel 1:13:40 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:13:41 ... eat food, so he ordered the whole population to 说 话 (Chinese) , to, to, um, to, to kill sparrows. So as a child, I sat with other people in our courtyard. We beat, uh, saucepans to make a tremendous ding, so the f- um, sparrows will, would drop on the, on the ground, and so the, all these people will, will go and, um, will, will, um, will, will go and catch the sparrows. And, uh, it was just catastrophe, because it not only killed sparrows, but many other birds, other birds as well. Uh, and, uh, and of course the, um, the, the worms, the pests, uh, insects, pests, they were ... uh, th- they flourished-

Dwarkesh Patel 1:14:32 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:14:33 ... without their, their natural m- enemy.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:14:37 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:14:37 Um, so I mean, it's, it's the, it's the, it's a unbelievable situation, um, that has consumed China, uh, for, you know, more than two decades.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:14:53 Yeah. Just, just the (laughs) complete, uh, lack of sense here. It, it would honestly be a j- be a joke if it, if obviously you didn't know it led to 40 million deaths.

Jung Chang 1:15:03 But the thing is, um, you know, in the West, I, um, I indirectly know somebody who was a s- uh, was a steel, mm, magnate.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:15:11 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:15:12 Uh, was a great steel producer, and he thought Mao's, um, steel backyard furnaces were brilliant idea. I mean talking about people in the West, not just academics, but many-

Dwarkesh Patel 1:15:27 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:15:28 ... other people, completely irrational. Um, and I think maybe in their f- in their eagerness to, to find an alternative to the Western, mm, capitalist democracy.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:15:43 Mm. So s- say more about that. I, I know we did touch on that earlier when we were discussing, you know, why are people still defending Mao. But what motivated, at the time and even still now, uh (laughs) , uh, what, people were so disillusioned with Western capitalism that they thought they would rather have Mao?

Jung Chang 1:16:00 I, I think there were lot of people like that, uh, with the young generation.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:16:05 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:16:05 I mean, they grew up, um, after the collapse of the Soviet empire. I mean, a lot of facts have come out.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:16:12 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:16:12 Um, so people were no longer probably so starry-eyed and so wishful thinking-

Dwarkesh Patel 1:16:19 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:16:19 ... about the communist regimes. But there was a time in those years in the, um, in the ... when, when communism seemed to be going strong in so many countries. Um, a lot of p- there were a lot of the, uh, mm, wishful thinking Westerners.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:16:39 Mm-hmm.

Jung Chang 1:16:40 Um, as I said, they may be pursuing for a, for an alternative to a society they have a lot of discontent with.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:16:49 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:16:49 I mean, so they so wanted for such miracle to happen and they, they believed in what in the ... otherwise might have rejected as, uh, as fantasy.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:17:03 Yeah. And s- speaking of which, tomorrow I'm interviewing, uh, Niall Ferguson, who has written a biography, volume one of his biography of Kissinger, and volume two, which will cover this period, will, will come out later. He's writing it right now. What would Kissinger have done differently? Should, should, should they not have tried to open up China, uh, under Mao? Wha- what should have been the policy of the United States at the time?

Jung Chang 1:17:25 China was not opened up by Kissinger and Nixon.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:17:30 Mm-hmm.

Jung Chang 1:17:31 I, I lived in China then. I knew after Nixon and Kissinger's visit, I mean, uh, 1971, '72, China was not opened up. Um, I mean, all the liberalization, see-... you know, relaxation after Ni- Nixon's visit was mainly because of the collapse of Lin Biao.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:17:55 Mm.

Jung Chang 1:17:56 And Mao's lost his arm, his arm with which he controlled the army. So I think to say Nixon and Kissinger opened up China-

Dwarkesh Patel 1:18:06 Mm.

Jung Chang 1:18:07 ... is wrong. That's not the case. Kissinger-I think Kinsey is very, very smart person. I think he probably was too fascinated with power. I mean, Mao had the kind of power, he could turn the lives upside down, um, of, uh, a quarter of a million of the world's population.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:18:31 Wow.

Jung Chang 1:18:31 I think he was very fascinated with Mao. I mean, he said nice things about Mao. Um, and even, um, after Mao died, you know, with the regime, um, was reviving Mao, there were a few people reviving Mao like the current Mr. Xi and his political rival, Mr. Bo, um, who, uh, with whom Kissinger seemed to be very close. He attended these rallies, um, to eulogize Mao-

Dwarkesh Patel 1:19:04 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:19:04 ... big rallies, and len- lending his, his whatever status he had, um, to the Chinese regime's effort to stick with Mao's legacy. Um, I think that's unforgivable.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:19:20 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:19:21 That's one thing. And the other thing is China's opening up to the West, and that happened only after Mao died-

Dwarkesh Patel 1:19:30 Mm-hmm.

Jung Chang 1:19:30 ... in 1976, and Deng Xiaoping came to power. I knew this very well because I was one of the first Chinese to be able to leave China, um, in 1978. I mean, uh, to see, you know, to... That's the very beginning of the opening up. I think it's a good thing. I mean, China has grown. I mean, you know, sort of ditching Mao's, um, e- economical lunacy and the ideology, um, that has wrecked China. And, um, the Chinese people are leading a much better life-

Dwarkesh Patel 1:20:08 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:20:08 ... today. And all this could not have happened if the Ch- uh, country had not opened up. And also, through all this contact with the West, any attempt to go back to the Maoist time would be futile-

Dwarkesh Patel 1:20:24 Right.

Jung Chang 1:20:25 ... because the people knew what the West was like.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:20:28 Mm-hmm.

Jung Chang 1:20:28 The people don't want to be, really don't want to be isolated again, um, to lead a life of Mao's time. No matter how they may say they worship the Mao, no matter, no matter how they make, make pri- pilgrimages-

Dwarkesh Patel 1:20:45 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:20:45 ... to Mao's birthplace and so on. But deep down, I think nobody wants to go back. So I think that's a very good thing, this opening up. But of course, then a country may grow into a menace to the world. I mean, that's another matter.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:21:05 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:21:05 That's a challenge-

Dwarkesh Patel 1:21:06 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:21:07 ... that the world needs to face now.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:21:10 Mm-hmm.

Jung Chang 1:21:10 But it's certainly not to make, um, to, um, to s- it's not, certainly not to, to say China shouldn't, we shouldn't have, the West-

Dwarkesh Patel 1:21:21 Mm-hmm.

Jung Chang 1:21:21 ... shouldn't have allowed China to open up.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:21:24 Yeah, yeah. I mean, you, you can't just dismiss a billion people coming out of poverty. That's-

Jung Chang 1:21:27 Yes, exactly.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:21:27 It's the, it's the best thing that's ever happened in history.

Jung Chang 1:21:30 Exactly, exactly.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:21:31 So, le- let's go back to the Cultural Revolution. One thing that I find really interesting about communism, especially in China, is the need for the victims to then incriminate themselves, to confess. When, when (laughs) , even Hitler wouldn't have the, the Jews in Auschwitz, you know, talk about renouncing their Semitic ways and, you know, "I've been an enemy to Germany in World War I." The, the... So what, what was... Explain why it was important that the victims of these purges had to then talk about, "Oh, oh, you know, I'm guilty, I'm complicit." Why couldn't they just be ostracized?

Jung Chang 1:22:11 I, I think Mao knows people's psychology-

Dwarkesh Patel 1:22:13 Mm-hmm.

Jung Chang 1:22:14 ... um, very well. Um, and, um, I, I think he uses this as a weapon to break people. I mean, to humiliate them and to break them.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:22:26 Mm-hmm.

Jung Chang 1:22:26 I mean, so even his opponents then started to grow doubt about their own opposition. So I, I think that's the main thing. I mean, it's... I tell you, it's, it's not very nice. I mean, China, when I lived in China, I wasn't denounced, but we all had to attend criticism and self-criticism meetings. I mean, it really, it stirs up some very basic discomfort-

Dwarkesh Patel 1:23:00 Mm-hmm.

Jung Chang 1:23:01 ... and, um, u- upsetnes- unsettling upset feelings if you have to criticize yourself. I mean, n- you know, not do it cynically because you have to win. Nowadays, it's not... You, you couldn't do it cynically because nobody has reason to understand the whole thing in order to be cynical.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:23:22 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:23:23 So you are starting with being quite sincere.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:23:26 Oh, yeah.

Jung Chang 1:23:26 I mean, so it's, it certainly breaks people, and also it makes people denun- it makes peop- turn people against each other, because when people-

Dwarkesh Patel 1:23:38 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:23:38 ... are criticizing each other, you create a lot of animosities among the people, which is one reason why no opposition can get organized.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:23:50 Mm-hmm.

Jung Chang 1:23:50 I mean, people can't, uh, don't dare to, to, um, talk to each other in case they were denounced.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:23:56 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:23:56 I mean, um, in case there were... It's always very, uh, very... It's a psychological warfare-

Dwarkesh Patel 1:24:02 Right.

Jung Chang 1:24:03 ... against his own population, which is quite effective.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:24:07 So, so meaning that it wasn't just a campaign against political opposition, it was literally every part of your life.

Jung Chang 1:24:15 Yes.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:24:16 Y- y- your... I, I think even in, in the book, you talk about embracing your family is anti-Maoist because it shows you're closer to your family than you are to Mao.

Jung Chang 1:24:25 Exactly. It's this warm feeling is just... I mean-... the, and, the, you know, I'm, I was constantly criticized of, um, because my feelings for my family. And Deng, Deng Xiaoping, when he wrote to Mao about his son, the son you talked about who was crippled, he wrote to Mao to ask Mao to allow his son to join him so he could look after his son. He and his wife, uh, who was so s- heartbroken seeing his son, um, she wanted to kill herself. Anyway, um, Deng had to preface his appeal with, "I'm afraid, you know, I'm committing warm feelingism."

Dwarkesh Patel 1:25:11 Mm-hmm.

Jung Chang 1:25:12 Um, "But could you allow, you know, my son to join me to be looked after?"

Dwarkesh Patel 1:25:18 Yeah, that, that, uh, is-

Jung Chang 1:25:19 It's, it's device that really separates a society, um, making people against each other and being on guard-

Dwarkesh Patel 1:25:28 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:25:28 ... against each other.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:25:30 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:25:30 I mean, earlier you were talking about why can't people get together?

Dwarkesh Patel 1:25:34 Right.

Jung Chang 1:25:34 Because I mean, this other person at the next criticism or self-criticism meetings could well say, "So and so had said this to me and I hadn't report it to the party, therefore, I'm guilty."

Dwarkesh Patel 1:25:48 I, and talk, talk about the way in which it forced good people to be immoral. You have these quota systems where if you're in charge of a department or something, that Mao says, "5% are rightist, 5% are capitalist voters." And so if you don't bring, if you don't get 5% of names who are capitalists who are gonna get denounced, then, uh, then you must be a rightist yourself. Talk, talk about how, how that aspect of the system.

Jung Chang 1:26:13 Well, I mean, you, it, it's the result is you are in a tremendous, um, dilemma-

Dwarkesh Patel 1:26:21 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:26:21 ... of, uh, either sacrificing you, your family, and them, and other people.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:26:27 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:26:27 I mean, which is another way of breaking these people. I mean, that, these are all his, his weapons, psychological weapons-

Dwarkesh Patel 1:26:38 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:26:38 ... to force people to do what he ordered them to do.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:26:43 Why, why was there such a big reservoir of, uh, of support for, uh, communist ideas and also the personality cult that formed, uh, around Mao in China? Um, w- what, what, you know, people give different explanations of the emperor worship beforehand led to this, or peasant, uh, rice farming. What, what explains why China, uh, got taken over by this ideology?

Jung Chang 1:27:11 It's again not, not an ideology.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:27:13 Right.

Jung Chang 1:27:13 And Mao himself said in 1923, he didn't believe that the Chinese would go for communism. I mean, he thought, um, that communism could only be brought to China by the Russian Red Army, and he was right. I mean, in the earlier years when the Comi- the Comintern, you know, the Moscow's representatives to China and to other countries, and said it was China was lo- lost cause. The people didn't... were the last people to go for communism. I mean, much easier in India, for example.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:27:50 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:27:51 So Mao was wise because after the war, uh, uh, the Second World War, the Russian Army, Red Army invaded China and occupied, uh, the north and northeast of China, a large hunk of land that was more than the entire Eastern Europe. So with this, they, this land starting then supported Mao-

Dwarkesh Patel 1:28:22 Right.

Jung Chang 1:28:22 ... to, to fight war against Chiang Kai-shek.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:28:27 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:28:27 I mean, Mao of course was the... Mm, was al- Mao is the main, main man who ensured his success. Um, because during the war against Japan, all his colleagues wanted to fight Japan, and Mao was the only person who was against it and tried everything he could to take advantage of the war, which destroyed Chiang Kai-shek's government-

Dwarkesh Patel 1:28:56 Right.

Jung Chang 1:28:56 ... whereas Mao grew, the red grew during the war.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:29:01 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:29:02 So Mao was very smart, and this is one reason why Deng Xiaoping and a lot of other communist leaders, um, were so totally devoted to Mao, because they realized if it were not for Mao, they would never have come to power.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:29:17 Right. Well, uh, and by the way, what do you make of the analogies people make, uh, when they say what happened in, uh, the US and, uh, you know, other countries a couple years ago w- with the BLM movement?

Jung Chang 1:29:27 Of course it's not, it's not at all comparable.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:29:30 Right.

Jung Chang 1:29:31 Um, I mean, the Cultural Revolution, I mean, I think maybe people just saw statues being toppled-

Dwarkesh Patel 1:29:37 Right.

Jung Chang 1:29:38 ... uh, I don't know what else. I mean, you know, a few things-

Dwarkesh Patel 1:29:41 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:29:41 ... superficial things. The Cultural Revolution was nothing like that. I mean, nobody could... you know, you couldn't even comprehend the horror of the Cultural Revolution in a society. The fear, the destruction. I mean, you know, China is really totally destroyed. I mean, there was no antiquity in the private hands. You know, wiped out, taken by the, uh, by the regime. Uh, it- yeah, it just... It's nothing like that, you know. For 10 years-

Dwarkesh Patel 1:30:14 Yeah.

Jung Chang 1:30:14 ... mm, there were no books, no cinemas, no theaters. Um, I mean, my mother was in... The cinemas and theaters were turned into, um, prisons and torture chambers-

Dwarkesh Patel 1:30:25 Wow.

Jung Chang 1:30:25 ... and my mother was imprisoned in one. And, um, you know, I knew how to get a hold of one book. I mean, it was how difficult and how much... how, how impossible that was. And we... that, that was the 10 years of the Cultural Revolution. Um, it's nothing like what happened in the West.

Dwarkesh Patel 1:30:49 Hey, everybody. I hope you enjoyed that episode. As always, the most helpful thing you can do is to share the podcast. Send it to people you think might enjoy it, put it in Twitter, your group chats, et cetera. It just bless the world. Appreciate you listening. I'll see you next time. Cheers. (gentle music)