Good Inside with Dr. BeckyWhy Kids Saying No Is a Good Sign | Dr. Becky and Chris Voss
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
50 min read · 10,283 words- 0:00 – 1:39
Intro: when your kid says no
- BEDr. Becky
"You can't make me." "I'm not going." "No, no, no." I think these phrases are the most common things parents come to me about. What do I do when my kid says no, when they refuse, when they just cross their arms and look at me in a way I never would have looked at my parents? My kid's defiant. My kid's difficult. How do I get my kid to cooperate? Okay, I have the most amazing guest to talk about this exact topic, Chris Voss. Chris spent decades as an FBI hostage negotiator, and his work is built around a truth that every parent eventually learns the hard way. When people feel cornered, they do not become more reasonable just because we lecture or scream or give them an even more intense threat. Now, kids are not hostage-takers. They're kids, and we'll be clear about that. And conflict has patterns. Escalation has patterns, and staying steady under pressure is a skill that everyone can learn. So today, we're going to talk about tools: mirroring, labeling, voice, better questions, actually wanting to hear the word "no" from the other person, and what to do in those five seconds after your kid refuses to do something they actually have to do. And we'll also be talking about how to use these tools in a way that protects what matters most, staying connected to your kid. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside.
- 1:39 – 8:28
Why "no" makes kids feel safe, not defiant
- BEDr. Becky
All right, Chris. I want to start with the word "no" because-
- CVChris Voss
No. [laughs] Sorry. You threw me a softball.
- BEDr. Becky
I, I did.
- CVChris Voss
[laughs]
- BEDr. Becky
I did. I walked right into that one. Um, well, it's one of the number one things I hear from parents as a, um, I don't know, kind of as a, as a complaint, as a frustration. My kid always says no. No to bath, no to bedtime, no to soccer practice, and they love soccer. But you have a different perspective on no, about whether it's a problem, whether you actually want to elicit a no. So, uh, tell me a little bit about that, and then maybe we'll apply it to toddlers.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah. Well, an interesting thought, also thinking about applying it to toddlers and how they learn it, but, you know, the act of saying no makes us feel safe and protected.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm.
- CVChris Voss
And, and empathy is about not what it is, is to you, but what is it to the other side. We can be in exactly the same conversation. You could be loving it. I could feel squashed.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm.
- CVChris Voss
And you are loving it so much you don't even notice I feel squashed. It's one of the problems with sharing common ground. I start to tell something about my childhood, and you leap in and tell a story about your childhood, and you feel so strongly about, uh, you don't realize you just squashed me. You stole my story. But you're having such a great time sharing, you don't have the, any idea the other side feels stolen. So y- yes, both the words yes and no, and a lot of other words, are exactly like that. We hate to hear no, but everybody loves to say it.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm.
- CVChris Voss
'Cause every time you said no, you s- you s- you protected yourself from something. It's a Pavlovian response-
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm
- CVChris Voss
... I think principally triggered by so many people in their younger, innocent days were bamboozled by yes. Like, I still have somewhere in my storage, uh, a coupon book I spent $25 for when I was 19. It was supposed to be worth $5,000, and I never figured out how to spend any of the coupons. I'm sure I got yes'd into that. So everybody gets bamboozled by yes, so much so that, it, it sounds harsh, but my comparison is a battered child. So-
- BEDr. Becky
Mm
- CVChris Voss
... regardless of intent of yes, people are worried that they're gonna get hooked. So everybody's worried about saying yes to anything-
- BEDr. Becky
Mm
- CVChris Voss
... 'cause everybody's been conned with yes. So no is the same way. If, if yes is I'm being conned, no, I protected myself.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm.
- CVChris Voss
No, okay. And point of fact, if you get somebody to say no, anybody, they feel strong, safe, and protected, which interestingly enough, modeling for toddlers, adults are modeling how to be in control. And kids don't learn what you tell them. They learn what they see you model.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
So as an adult, you're modeling control to them-
- BEDr. Becky
Mm
- CVChris Voss
... by saying no. So that's how they learn it.
- BEDr. Becky
So I'm thinking about the toddler saying no because the first image I had when you were saying a no makes us feel protected, right, is I say to my toddler or my eight-year-old, my 10-year-old, "Hey, you know, whatever we're doing, it's been fun. It's time to get ready for bed." No. I, I kind of picture, I don't know, I'm saying, "Hey, it's time to start the bedtime routine," and they're kind of saying-- and they only say this through no because pr- they probably aren't sophisticated enough, even like we aren't sometimes, to say, "Hold on. I'm still having fun. I'd really rather not go to bed. I really would like to watch another episode. I want to keep playing Clue," whatever we're doing. They just say, "No," but it is kind of like a boundary around them. Like, "This is me. I don't want to."
- CVChris Voss
Yeah.
- BEDr. Becky
"And this is you."
- CVChris Voss
Yeah.
- BEDr. Becky
"You want me to."
- CVChris Voss
Right.
- 8:28 – 13:24
"How" and "what" questions get kids thinking, not orders
- BEDr. Becky
Hmm
- CVChris Voss
... I'm gonna say, "How do we achieve this?" That's as much to get you to think about it as it is to get an answer.
- BEDr. Becky
Hmm.
- CVChris Voss
And when we're teaching negotiation, you, well, you gotta be careful with how and what as questions for adults because they're fatiguing to answer. They trigger what Danny Kahneman called deep thinking.
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
You know, what's the biggest challenge you face?
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
I can ask you that at 10:00 in the morning, you'll probably lay it out for me.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
What keeps you up at night? 10:00 in the morning, you're gonna give me a good answer. 4:00 in the afternoon, I say to you, "What, what keeps you up at night?" You'd be like, "I don't know. Leave me alone."
- BEDr. Becky
But, but I think then, I'm gonna translate that for parents, we're also talking about timing. Timing matters, right? I think-
- CVChris Voss
Ti- yeah, good point
- BEDr. Becky
... so many times for parents, parents will say, "Well, what do I do at 9:00 when my kid's having a tantrum about not going to bed and I'm at my wit's end?" And I often say, like, "I don't know. There's not many good options at that point." [laughs] Like, your car is so close to a cliff. But if your kid is protesting bed 19 nights in a row, it, it seems like Saturday morning when you're together in a calm moment, that might be a more opportune time to, to collaborate around, you know, nighttime issues.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah. Well, there's, there's two things-
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm
- CVChris Voss
... 'cause, you know, they say when you're up to your rear end in alligators, it's not a good time to be reminded you should've drained the swamp in the first place.
- BEDr. Becky
[laughs] Exactly. Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
So y- y- you're up to your rear end in alligators when a kid's throwing a tantrum.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
They're doing that because you conditioned them it's successful.
- BEDr. Becky
Hmm.
- CVChris Voss
You rewarded that bad behavior in the past by giving in.
- BEDr. Becky
Maybe.
- CVChris Voss
Oh, no, without question.
- BEDr. Becky
Hmm? I don't know.
- CVChris Voss
That's, that's learned behavior.
- BEDr. Becky
I, I mean, you think it's... I, I mean, kids have tantrums often because they're overwhelmed in a situation, right? I mean, parents can set boundaries all day long around things, and still some kids are just overwhelmed and it comes out that way. What, what are some of the things you coach adults to do, with other adults, when they hear a no? They're trying to get to a yes, but they hear no. Like, what are, what are some of the moves?
- CVChris Voss
Well, if I, you know, then, then trigger a no. Like, it, like, it's, it's so automatic-
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm
- CVChris Voss
... and it's so stupid.
- 13:24 – 15:26
Mirroring 101: the tool that reopens conversation
- BEDr. Becky
of truth to that. Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
All right.
- BEDr. Becky
So, okay. So w- another tool you talk about that I think is really interesting is, is mirroring, right? And I'm gonna play some things for you that I think so many of us as parents, we're conditioned to respond to with lecture. Okay?
- CVChris Voss
Uh-huh. Right.
- BEDr. Becky
Which is definitely not mirroring, right? "So I'm not going to bed." "Oh, you are going to bed, and if you don't get this much sleep," right? Or, "I don't wanna go to the birthday party." "We already RSVP'd for the birthday party. It's your cousin. We have to go to the birthday party." Okay, what, what's, what's coming up? What's up coming up for you as, um-
- CVChris Voss
Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, it's, uh, parental challenges 101, life as a parent, right?
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
Especially as, as the older they get and the more, yeah, they're looking for autonomy.
- BEDr. Becky
Yes.
- CVChris Voss
Or then, um, uh, puberty-
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm
- CVChris Voss
... when the brain is being scrambled by growth.
- BEDr. Becky
Yes.
- CVChris Voss
And they don't know which way is up.
- BEDr. Becky
L- let's, let's go to, you know, a micro moment in the house. Let's say it's around puberty, right? So maybe it's around a kid wanting social media, a parent saying no, or a kid is, you know, holding their phone and the rule is no phone in the bedroom. Right? I think these are these moments when it's so easy to launch into a lecture.
- CVChris Voss
Right.
- BEDr. Becky
Right? But you talk about, like, kind of mirroring or three words, right? Can you, can you speak a little bit about that?
- CVChris Voss
You know, and that's really with parents and kids, that's one of the magic tools.
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
And mirroring is just repeating the last one to three-ish words, could be one word, could be f- n- u- usually no more than five. And then the inflection is really important. It's either, uh, inflection of comprehension-
- BEDr. Becky
Hmm
- CVChris Voss
... which would be the last three words, downward inflection. Comprehension, you can downward inflect just by dropping your chin.
- BEDr. Becky
Hmm.
- CVChris Voss
Male or female, you could have a high, squeaky voice like Minnie Mouse. If you drop your chin, you still downward inflect. You don't gotta have a deep voice to downward inflect. Or curiosity, and the physical movement with that is also just turning your head to the side and lifting your chin. Either side, it do- doesn't make any difference.
- 15:26 – 21:31
Fixing the "How was your day?" / "Fine." loop
- CVChris Voss
And it's really encouraging. And so sort of the classic moment, "How was your day?" "Fine." "What'd you learn?" "I forget." All right, so you get in, you conditioned your child into that dynamic, and how did you do that? 'Cause when you said, "How was your day?" The first time they laid it all out, you immediately went to, "What did you learn?" Which gave no indication whatsoever that you listened to what they said.
- BEDr. Becky
Hmm.
- CVChris Voss
A lot of really well-intentioned parents wanna show interest. Just ask these two questions. "How was your day? What did you learn? How was your day? What did you learn?" You do that two or three times, a kid catches on. You didn't listen to the answer in the first place. So me as an adult, if you're not listening to me, I'm not gonna talk to you.
- BEDr. Becky
Hmm.
- CVChris Voss
So no shortages of moms have started the conversation back up with their daughters, "How was your day?" "Fine." And she says, "Fine?" Curiosity, upward inflection, a mirror. And the next conver- the kid goes, "You heard that answer? You actually listened? I'm shocked." And two or three conversations later, it's not gonna happen that day. I guarantee you by the third day, 'cause we get these emails from our clients all the time, "My daughter is talking to me, and all I did was mirror her."
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
"And we're having the longest conversations now that we haven't had in years." So the questions are great, well-intentioned questions, and the mirror, the skill that you just asked me about, is the easiest way to show that you caught it. Now, you may have caught the answer, but if you immediately move on to the next question, they got no idea, and it's as simple as the mirror and opening kids up right and left-
- BEDr. Becky
Hmm
- CVChris Voss
... all over the place.
- BEDr. Becky
You know, I'm thinking about what it would feel like for me or it's happened when someone asks me a question, I share something, and they're on to their next question. Um, I feel like I'm an item on th- their to-do list.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah.
- BEDr. Becky
Like I'm-
- CVChris Voss
Yeah
- BEDr. Becky
... fulfilling their agenda.
- CVChris Voss
Well said.
- BEDr. Becky
Check. You know? And there's, I guess, like, you're right, there's not a lot of space for me in that conversation. I'm kind of like an object [laughs] in some way.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah. Yeah.
- BEDr. Becky
Um, and I guess what we're all looking for when our kid is coming home is, is for them to be the subject of the story and for us to listen, but we don't always actually communicate that by the way we respond.
- CVChris Voss
Right. Right. And, and again, there's, there's nothing wrong with the intention.
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
But it's intention and impact.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
A par- parents ask those question, the intention is to show interest, and you are interested.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
And the intention is to grow them and help them think.
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
And so it's all there. And so the, the tiny little tweak, though, is making them... Yeah, and you can't say, "I understand." That, you know, uh, that- that's a whole conditioning thing as well, which is it's what people say when they want you to stop talking. "I understand. Now listen to me." So we're conditioned that, "I understand," is somebody shutting you off. But the mirror is the simplest-
- BEDr. Becky
Hmm
- CVChris Voss
... skill. And, and we've got, you know, I got, I get women coaches on my team, uh, Sandy Hein, and she's got a lot of women clients.
- BEDr. Becky
Hmm.
- 21:31 – 24:11
Mirroring an escalated "I hate you"
- BEDr. Becky
that you think is kind of effective in that moment?
- CVChris Voss
Well, I, I, you know, if somebody were to say to me, "I hate you," I'd be like, "Hate me?"
- BEDr. Becky
Hmm.
- CVChris Voss
Just curiosity's a superpower.
- BEDr. Becky
Hmm.
- CVChris Voss
Kid says, "I hate you." If you go, "You, you hate me?" with curiosity-
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah
- CVChris Voss
... first of all, you survive.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
It protects you.
- BEDr. Becky
Yes.
- CVChris Voss
It's a selfish thing to do to protect your state of mind, but you're no good for the kid if you're angry with them, if you're offended. You just started to go down a rabbit hole that's very difficult to recover from.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
So to be a great parent, you gotta protect your psyche first.
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
And if you can re- put yourself in curiosity, now you can get a grip.
- BEDr. Becky
L- l- let me ask you, because I think parenting, and I'm curious if you see it in other places, too, so far as in hostage negotiation, something happens where parents conflate curiosity with approval or permissiveness.
- CVChris Voss
Interesting. Yeah.
- BEDr. Becky
So, right? Okay, so being curious in that moment, right? You're kind of able in that moment to say, "Okay, something, something's going on for my kid. I don't know exactly what it is, but-"
- CVChris Voss
Yes
- BEDr. Becky
... "they, you know, they, they don't really have the words or the regulation to be able to tell me exactly what they're upset about or the series of events." So there's something under the, "I hate you." But what I hear from parents that stops them from being curious is, "My kid can't think this is okay. So I'm gonna stay calm, then my kid is gonna learn that you can just talk to people like that," right? And so there's this, uh, something's getting conflated there. I'm, I'm curious if you see that in your kind of more adult-focused work.
- CVChris Voss
Uh, I, yeah, that's a really interesting point, and I think as the user, you're gonna be very cons- you're, you're gonna really be conscious and be concerned about what you've demonstrated is okay.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
And you gotta test drive curiosity enough.
- BEDr. Becky
Hmm.
- CVChris Voss
I mean, empathy is not approval.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
Empathy is not sympathy. Empathy is not agreement.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
Empathy is not compassion, although it's a very compassionate thing to do. Empathy is a precursor to compassion. And a lot of people have trouble not making it synonymous with agreement. Understanding is not agreement.
- 24:11 – 27:00
The "before I disagree" cheat code
- CVChris Voss
game on us. And then even if you're worried, you can say, "Before I disagree, here's what I think you're saying."
- BEDr. Becky
Mm.
- CVChris Voss
So you told somebody up front you didn't agree.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm. Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
If you're worried about it.
- BEDr. Becky
Yep.
- CVChris Voss
And-
- BEDr. Becky
Before I disagree, let me see if I got this right.
- CVChris Voss
There you go.
- BEDr. Becky
And so-
- CVChris Voss
Exactly
- BEDr. Becky
... and so maybe internally, I'm just thinking about the parent who's thinking, uh, uh, "My kid can't talk to me like that. I don't want them to think I can, I approve of this behavior," and if I'm being curious and I'm gonna understand it, is that approving? And if I'm trying to figure out that journey, maybe a little cheat code is [laughs] saying out loud, "Before I disagree, before I tell you why that behavior wasn't okay, let me see if I got this right." It, it's kind of like I, I, I feel internally if that's a new journey for me, I can, I feel a little safer-
- CVChris Voss
I think it's-
- BEDr. Becky
... moving forward
- CVChris Voss
... I think it's a, it's a great cheat code.
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
Now, the, th- then the rest of the trick is when you say, "Before I disagree, let me see if I got this right," as a Hollywood exec I've been quoting for a f- couple years, Bob Evans, he said, "There's three sides to every story: your side, my side, and the truth."
- BEDr. Becky
Uh-huh.
- CVChris Voss
So a lot of people when they're gonna summarize a situation, they'll summarize their perspective instead of the other person's perspective.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
And that's an easy trap to fall into. So y- you gotta make sure that you're, when you say, "Let me see if I got this right," then you gotta s- you gotta-
- BEDr. Becky
Mm
- CVChris Voss
... say out loud what they're communicating.
- BEDr. Becky
You really, you thought you could stay up later tonight. You wanted to watch the rest of the Knicks game.
- CVChris Voss
Well, this-
- BEDr. Becky
You have a, what, mm-hmm
- CVChris Voss
... this, you wanna watch the Knicks game 'cause it's important to you.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm.
- CVChris Voss
That's their, that's their, what they're saying.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm.
- 27:00 – 34:01
"You're right" vs. "That's right"
- BEDr. Becky
right?
- CVChris Voss
Yeah, yeah. Well said.
- BEDr. Becky
So, okay, so there's three sides to every story. There's my side, there's your side, and then there's the truth. Uh, uh, it makes me think about something else, um, that you talk about, which is the difference between you're right and that's right. Um, and one of the things I often tell parents is, you know, kind of, with your kid you can be right or you can be effective, but you can rarely be both. You know, so your home, your life, you pick, you know? Um, but what is the difference between you're right and that's right in terms of which we're gearing toward in a conversation?
- CVChris Voss
You know, and that's one of those classic phrases. Depends upon which side of it you're on, how you hear it, 'cause there isn't a human being that I know, um, over the age of 12 that hasn't learned that if somebody's giving them a hard time, in order to make that person feel really happy and get them to shut up and go away, all you gotta do is look at them and say, "You're right."
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
And people find hearing that so satisfying that they get happy and they shut up and they lay off.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm.
- CVChris Voss
And there isn't a, you know, everybody I know has done it two or three times each week with a, a boss, a colleague, a family member, especially somebody who's in a position, if, if they're in a position where you want to or you have to preserve the relationship.
- BEDr. Becky
Hmm.
- CVChris Voss
You don't wanna offend them.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
But you want them to shut up.
- BEDr. Becky
[laughs]
- CVChris Voss
Say, "You're right," and they, and they stop talking.
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
And so we use it as a tool to get people to shut up and go away, and yet almost everybody falls victim to it when somebody says, "You're right" to them. They go like, "Yeah, of course I'm right. Oh, I'm so happy. Woo-hoo. And I'm sat- since I'm satisfied that I've made my point with the other side, I can stop talking."
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
Point made. [laughs]
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
It, it really is like this ongoing human comedy.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
So the flip side, that's right, until you understand what it means, is not as satisfying to hear.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm.
- CVChris Voss
Because you, the word you is always much more engaging to us.
- BEDr. Becky
Hmm.
- CVChris Voss
It, it, it reaches in and touches us in a way that not everybody fully appreciates, and that's why you're like, "You're right," 'cause that, that you word is in there. You're attached to right. And when you hear that's right, you don't feel attached to it.
- BEDr. Becky
Hmm.
- CVChris Voss
But and then when people say it, they don't consciously realize, they, they say it when they feel that what they've heard is not your truth or my truth, but it's the truth.
- BEDr. Becky
Hmm.
- CVChris Voss
And then hearing the truth, they don't realize it, but then they get attached to the purveyor of that truth.
- 34:01 – 39:44
Why "why" backfires, and what to ask instead
- BEDr. Becky
in our moments of frustration, "Why don't you ever listen to me? Why won't you just go to bed? Why won't you put your phone down?" Are, are those... Sometimes I think we ask questions that aren't really questions, they just have a question mark at the end.
- CVChris Voss
Well, sometimes, yeah.
- BEDr. Becky
They're accusations. [laughs]
- CVChris Voss
Yeah.
- BEDr. Becky
So what, what's wrong with those "why" questions?
- CVChris Voss
Everybody's been conditioned, um, that if some- if you're being asked why, the other side thinks you made a mistake.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm.
- CVChris Voss
Now, you could, you... A- and it's a crazy thing about the term why-
- BEDr. Becky
Mm
- CVChris Voss
... you know, 'cause Simon Sinek will say find out their why. Well, you do need to find out their why, but the problem is every time you think somebody made a mistake, you're gonna ask them why.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm.
- CVChris Voss
And we hope that we think, "Well, I, I didn't think they made a mistake, but I still need to know why."
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
Well, you condition them, seven out of 10 times when they made a mistake the first word coming out of your mouth is why.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
And they've been con- we've all been conditioned that way since we were very small.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
Uh, uh, around the world, universally, whenever you made the slightest mistake as a toddler, or you pulled something down off a table-
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah
- CVChris Voss
... 'cause you were just learning to stand assisted.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
And you're groping and you're curious, and you saw this shiny object and you pulled it off the table, and it happened to be glass.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
And the nearest monster, a- also known as an adult, you know, Godzilla standing next to you, 'cause they're towering over you, and they point a finger at you, and they go, "Why did you do that?" And it's an unintentional... It's one thing that I learned worldwide in negotiations, hostage negotiations first, then business after that. You wanna set somebody off, ask them why.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm.
- CVChris Voss
Uh, auto- automatically makes them mad-
- BEDr. Becky
Mm
- CVChris Voss
... 'cause they feel accused.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
And so you may genuinely wanna know why, but again, the conditioning is it's an accusation.
- 39:44 – 44:08
Nothing works all the time; you need what works most
- BEDr. Becky
of failures.
- CVChris Voss
Right.
- BEDr. Becky
Okay.
- CVChris Voss
Nothing works all the time.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm.
- CVChris Voss
You just need something that works more than anything else.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm.
- CVChris Voss
It's basically the Las Vegas analogy. If I'm the best card counter that ever lived, I'm gonna lose some hands.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
But I win so many, then the losses are not a big deal. Communication strategies with bad guys, communication strategies with your kids.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
Nothing works all the time. You need what works more than anything else.
- BEDr. Becky
You know, I'm thinking about the parent listening who feels very stuck with their kid, right? So everything ends in "I hate you" or the slammed door, and I, I'm just thinking about how kind of that's a form of aggression, you know-
- CVChris Voss
It is, yeah
- BEDr. Becky
... relational violence, right?
- CVChris Voss
Yep, yep.
- BEDr. Becky
But I think so many times-
- CVChris Voss
That's right
- BEDr. Becky
... we see that as, "Oh, disrespectful kid" or something like that versus, I'm using your framework, kind of a logical progression- [laughs]
- CVChris Voss
Yeah
- BEDr. Becky
... based on maybe a, a road that I didn't even know was being paved. And, and it-
- CVChris Voss
Yes
- BEDr. Becky
... it's interesting 'cause I go back to a question I say I ask my kids if maybe I wasn't listening to them. But I think about approaching a teen in such a disarming way of, "Look, I wanna talk about you slamming the doors, but actually you're not in trouble. I wonder if there have been a lot of ways you're, you've been trying to tell me I'm not hearing you or I don't understand you that I've, that I've ignored for a while, and that maybe I need to kind of listen better. Maybe your slamming the doors is kind of the end result of many years where I haven't really been understanding you." I, I just, I think about how disarming [laughs] that would be to a 15-year-old to hear versus, "If you slam one more door, don't even think you're going to that concert with your friend." And then I know my kid is sneaking out and going to that concert.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah, right.
- BEDr. Becky
Right?
- CVChris Voss
Or something's gonna get broken or something's going sideways soon.
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah.
- BEDr. Becky
Kind of this logical progression. And it's so interesting 'cause in your work it, it goes back to feeling seen, to feeling heard-
- CVChris Voss
Yeah
- 44:08 – 46:08
The power of a real apology
- CVChris Voss
they're somewhat indifferent to them-
- BEDr. Becky
Hmm
- CVChris Voss
... to it, but yet they still, an apology helps. As a general term, um, I'm a, I'm of the type two out of three people are l- are, are a little bit indifferent. One person really likes it.
- BEDr. Becky
Hmm.
- CVChris Voss
But that, the bottom line is there's no downside to it. You know, so if you're wondering whether or not you should apologize, and it, it's gotta be a real apology. You know, "I'm sorry you feel that way," that's the fu- that's the fake apology.
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
You know, "I'm sorry you reacted badly to it," which, you know, is equivalent to saying, "I'm sorry you're an idiot." [laughs] It's not an apology.
- BEDr. Becky
Yep.
- CVChris Voss
Um, but there's, like, a almost never a downside to it if it's a sincere, you know, "I'm sorry I snapped." Nobody should be happy that they snapped.
- BEDr. Becky
Right.
- CVChris Voss
So w- di- apologize for it. You know, even if you were right-
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah
- CVChris Voss
... in what you said.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
Even if you were right in your judgment.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
Snapping at somebody doesn't help, and so you should be sorry you snapped. And yeah, then, then the repair function. The repair's a great idea. You've, you've shown y- I see humility and fearlessness to be almost synonymous.
- BEDr. Becky
Hmm.
- CVChris Voss
And showing hum- humility is to be fearless.
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
And the other person finds it wonderful. Everybody wants to deal with somebody who's fearless.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
It's a great thing to model.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
So I, uh, apologies are, are appropriate.
- BEDr. Becky
So what about the parent who thinks, "I, I'm gonna lose my leverage with my kid, though, if I apologize, if I repair. The power dynamic is all off." How does that fit into kind of negotiation, leverage, influence?
- CVChris Voss
I don't, I, you know, there's a lot of common fears like that-
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm
- CVChris Voss
... that we conjure up in our brain.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm.
- 46:08 – 47:33
Does repairing cost you your authority?
- BEDr. Becky
Hmm. Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
The, the, the fearful caveman did not go wandering into the swamp stupidly. The f- the, the f- fearless caveman, in point of fact, wandered into the swamp, got eaten by the alligators. So we're wired in, the amygdala is our, our, our dominating thinking mechanism, the fear centers in our brain, until we've learned to rely on our instincts. Our instincts are really, really super, super accurate. Incredibly accurate. And so the challenge is always is the fear coming from your ins- your instincts-
- BEDr. Becky
Hmm
- CVChris Voss
... which has assessed the situation and told you based on real experience and real data you should be concerned, or the fear, "I'm afraid I'm losing control. I'm afraid I'm losing my authority."
- BEDr. Becky
Hmm.
- CVChris Voss
That's, uh, the imagined fears in your amygdala.
- BEDr. Becky
Well-
- CVChris Voss
And that happens 'cause you're human.
- BEDr. Becky
You know, one last thought. I, I've been thinking about it since, keep going back to you talking about, you talking about Maslow and kind of survival versus autonomy. You know, one of the questions I think kids are always asking parents, even though they never explicitly ask it, is, "Am I real?"
- CVChris Voss
Ah. Yeah.
- BEDr. Becky
I think that's why our relationship with our feelings matters so much, because there's no, like, when you skin your knee, there's blood, and you're like, "I'm in pain, and I have proof." And when you're mad or you're disappointed
- 47:33 – 51:48
The deepest question under every tantrum: "Am I real?"
- BEDr. Becky
or you're jealous, there's no, there's no proof. Like, [laughs] it, you know? And so I think the reason feeling seen or feeling validated in those feelings as a kid matters so much, I think it's a parent's way of saying, "You're real," right? And I think about, I'm curious if, if that core need, that first need for autonomy, even before survival, is in some ways, like, the definition of being real. Like, am I real? I need to be, feel real before I even have a need to survive.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah, I like that a lot.
- BEDr. Becky
[laughs]
- CVChris Voss
Yeah, yeah, I would, I would, I would agree. There's a, there's a number of things that are so closely intertwined, it's hard to really sort them out. Uh, one, another one is agency.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
But a- you know, am I real? 'Cause if you, if you're real, then can I affect my life?
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
Which is agency.
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
And yeah, I think in, being am I real is a great thing that's gotta be intertwined in both autonomy and agency.
- BEDr. Becky
A- and I think that's why when we don't feel real, we escalate our expression in a desperate attempt to get our environment to confirm our realness, which usually just leads to more invalidation or being told we're dramatic, which leads to more escalation.
- CVChris Voss
[laughs] Right.
- BEDr. Becky
Right? But probably true in- In your negotiations and in what I see in families all the time. [laughs]
- CVChris Voss
Yeah, I would agree.
- BEDr. Becky
Right?
- CVChris Voss
Yeah, I like it a lot.
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah.
- BEDr. Becky
Anything from your work, from your frameworks, that you feel like parents should be actively teaching their kids?
- CVChris Voss
I, I love that question because it's about collaborating positively with people, and you're always gonna get farther the more people you collaborate with positively. And so, so teaching them that and getting them to experiment with it and learn how people collaborate.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm.
- CVChris Voss
And then it's also if they do- if they fail with somebody, it really means the skill didn't fail. It means you talked to somebody who doesn't wanna collaborate.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm. Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
And it's a diagnostic. So it's good to know the people around you that wanna victimize you-
- BEDr. Becky
Mm
- CVChris Voss
... and don't wanna collaborate.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
And if you're really using the skills and listening to the answers, they never fail.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm.
- CVChris Voss
They always give you information about-
- 51:48 – 54:51
Getting a reluctant partner on board: "Are you against this?"
- CVChris Voss
Yeah. It's, it's that simple.
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
And it's ... And, and especially, you know, people collaborating with each other, the yes-no dynamic is huge.
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
And people will instantly respond. You preserve their autonomy.
- BEDr. Becky
That is so good. "Are you against watching this with me?" And then if my partner says, "No, I'm not against it," could I follow up with, "Oh, great. What, what time would work?"
- CVChris Voss
There you go.
- BEDr. Becky
Okay.
- CVChris Voss
Perfect.
- BEDr. Becky
But when I say, "Could we watch this together?" Even if I've had a preamble, to some degree my partner might hear meta communication: You've been wrong and I'm right, and I wanna prove it. [laughs]
- CVChris Voss
Or they're just, they're just triggering to yes.
- BEDr. Becky
Okay, so model it one more time for the parent who's thinking, "Okay, I'm gonna try this. I'm gonna approach my partner in a different way. I want them to watch something with me." What's the starting question?
- CVChris Voss
And I'd say, you know, "Unfortunately, I know I'm a goofball, and I'm always after you, and I think that this video would be helpful for both of us and be a better parents for our kids. Are you against watching it with me?"
- BEDr. Becky
Mm. And just to play it out, if they say, "Yeah"?
- CVChris Voss
Then dead silence. Let it sink in.
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah.
- CVChris Voss
You know? And, and if they, if they don't come off it in the six seconds, beautiful label to really open people up: "Seems like you got a reason for saying that."
- BEDr. Becky
Mm.
- CVChris Voss
Like, that is the magic label. You can say-
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah
- CVChris Voss
... to anybody under ... You disagree? "Seems like you got a reason for saying that."
- BEDr. Becky
I-
- CVChris Voss
You agree? "Seems like you got a reason for saying that."
- BEDr. Becky
Can that circle back to my, you know, 16-year-old, eight-year-old screaming, "I hate you" ?
- CVChris Voss
"Seems like you got a reason for saying that."
- BEDr. Becky
Tell me more.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah.
- BEDr. Becky
Ugh. We're gonna end on that, 'cause that is really good. Love it. Thank you for that upgrade. Thank you for this conversation.
- CVChris Voss
Thanks for having me in. I enjoyed it.
- BEDr. Becky
Great. I wanna share the thing that is loudest in my brain right now after my conversation with Chris. There's such a big difference between saying to someone, "Hey, would you be open to watching this video with me?" Versus, "Are you against watching this video with me?" I would've never thought to phrase something the second way, but I actually see why it's so much more effective, that it allows someone to have their autonomy and freedom and find kind of the common ground. So powerful. Asking a question to elicit a no. I'm definitely going to be thinking about that. Now, let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground, place a hand on your heart, and let's remind ourselves even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside. I'll see you soon. [outro music]
Episode duration: 54:52
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