CHAPTERS
- 0:12 – 4:49
From South Carolina cop to 25-year FBI undercover career
Joe sets the stage for Scott Payne’s background: 25 years undercover in extremist groups and biker gangs. Scott explains his upbringing, personality, and how early experiences in psychology, bouncing, and policing shaped his path toward undercover work.
- •Overview of Scott’s undercover résumé (Klan, neo-Nazis, biker gangs)
- •Growing up in South Carolina; sports and ‘bully of bullies’ mindset
- •Criminal justice major + psychology minor as foundational tools
- •Early exposure to conflict management and reading people through bouncing/cops
- 4:49 – 10:30
Early undercover basics: first narcotics buy and learning the craft
Scott recounts his first undercover assignment as a local narcotics investigator—buying crack on a street corner—and what it felt like to be out of his element. The conversation turns to how drug cases are built, from repeated buys to climbing the chain to distributors.
- •First undercover buy: fear of looking inexperienced vs fear of danger
- •How street buys lead to warrants, corner shutdowns, and bigger targets
- •‘Wall-off’ tactics to protect an undercover’s identity
- •Use of informants: paid sources, working off charges, rare ‘patriotic’ helpers
- 10:30 – 15:45
Why the FBI enables deeper undercover work than local policing
Scott explains the limits of local undercover work—being recognized in court, limited ability to rotate identities—and why federal certification expands possibilities worldwide. He describes joining the FBI, early assignments, and how he got pulled into undercover ‘cameos’ on major drug cases.
- •Local vs federal constraints: exposure in court and small-community recognition
- •Sources vs true undercover work and how they overlap operationally
- •First FBI office in NYC; rotations and assignment to Colombian drug squad
- •Replica deliveries and evidence tightening depending on AUSAs
- 15:45 – 19:38
FBI undercover certification school: stress testing to prevent failures in the field
Scott details the intensity of the FBI undercover certification school—sleep deprivation, relentless scenarios, and psychological pressure. The goal is to identify who will crack before an operation puts them in a lethal situation.
- •Two-week, no-days-off structure with severe sleep deprivation
- •Realism over ‘hazing’: training meant to keep agents alive
- •People unexpectedly ‘nutting out’ under exhaustion and pressure
- •Scott’s long-term involvement role-playing and helping run the school
- 19:38 – 30:31
Landing a ‘big leagues’ case: infiltrating the Outlaws motorcycle club
Scott describes how major long-term undercovers are staffed and how he became the primary on the Outlaws case. He explains the chess-game approach—matching personalities and using realistic cover details—then walks through his initial cold bump at a strip club and early relationship building.
- •How canvasses and undercover coordinators match UCs to cases
- •Cold bump strategy: showing up in a known hangout and working the room
- •Using authentic life skills (strip club bouncing, motorcycles) to blend in
- •Cover story development and staying consistent across months/years
- 30:31 – 40:35
Undercover tradeoffs: drinking, potential drug exposure, and courtroom risk
Joe presses on practical limits—whether undercovers can drink or do drugs. Scott explains controlled drinking, why training tests behavior under fatigue, and why drug use is both dangerous and legally/credibility risky in front of a jury.
- •Drinking is permitted but must remain controlled and articulable
- •Recordings can be played to juries—slurring can damage credibility
- •Drug use only as last-resort survival; fentanyl-era risk is extreme
- •Cases can collapse when undercovers ‘lose themselves’ (addiction, marriages, identity)
- 40:35 – 56:19
Escalation inside the Outlaws: stolen vehicles, cartel credibility, and trust-building
Scott explains how the Outlaws case moved from initial bonding to operational criminal evidence: insurance fraud, stolen vehicles, and later drug pipelines. He outlines how he avoided entrapment while still creating opportunities for targets to reveal crimes and intent.
- •Insurance fraud and stolen-vehicle ‘stolen price’ transactions
- •Mexico-border storyline: believable because it reflects real criminal markets
- •Avoiding entrapment: not directing specific thefts, letting targets initiate
- •Building a hierarchy of trust with key figures (Scot Town, Clothesline, Joe Dogs)
- 56:19 – 1:14:35
Near-catastrophe: basement strip-search for wires and an adrenaline dump
Scott recounts one of his most dangerous moments: being taken into a fortified clubhouse basement, weapons drawn, ordered to strip, and searched while heavily wired. He describes the physiological ‘adrenaline dump,’ how close he came to being discovered, and how the team prepared to breach a wall if needed.
- •Fortified clubhouse entry and isolation tactic by suspects
- •Wire search while armed: high probability of death if discovered
- •Adrenaline dump symptoms: time dilation, auditory exclusion, memory lapses
- •Cover team contingency: plan to ram/breach the wall next to the door
- 1:14:35 – 1:27:16
The human cost: family strain, Safeguard psychological assessments, and burnout crash
Scott describes how nonstop operations and a workaholic mindset wrecked his recovery, family presence, and mental health. He explains the FBI ‘Safeguard’ program (created after early undercover history) and his eventual diagnosis as overassigned after a severe crash and anxiety attack.
- •Undercover definition: building relationships you will betray
- •Workload spiral: case agent duties + UC ops + SWAT + instruction
- •Safeguard: twice-yearly mandatory psych assessments for active UCs
- •Anxiety attack cocktail (stimulants + exhaustion) and the forced timeout from travel/UC
- 1:27:16 – 1:35:05
Aftermath and moral whiplash: the last call with Scot Town and living with betrayal
Scott tells how the case concluded and the emotional weight of final communications with targets who genuinely cared about him. He discusses the reality of discovery in court, the fear of encountering former targets, and how he approaches those encounters without living in fear.
- •Final phone/Nextel contact: ‘I love you, brother’ before SWAT hits
- •Discovery makes the undercover role obvious to defendants post-arrest
- •Threat management differences: local cops vs FBI relocation options
- •Scott’s coping approach: direct engagement, optimism, valuing rare success stories
- 1:35:05 – 1:42:53
Most satisfying operation: pedophile murder-for-hire sting in county jail
Switching from conflicted bonds to clear moral lines, Scott recounts a quick undercover where a child molester tried to hire someone to kill the victim (and later the family). The sting produced clean audio evidence and led to guilty pleas and significant prison time.
- •Jailhouse solicitation and attorney-to-FBI referral chain
- •Undercover ‘extermination business’ framing to elicit explicit intent
- •Suspect expands plan to killing the victim’s family to remove witnesses
- •Emotional impact of child exploitation evidence and the need for psych support
- 1:42:53 – 1:49:03
Border-case realities: cartel violence, kidnappings, and corruption as a system
Scott shifts to case-agent work on the border: kidnappings, extortions, and extreme cartel brutality. He describes how ransom negotiations unfold, the role of liaison channels, and the grim incentives created by corruption and quota systems.
- •Kidnapping/extortion pattern: rapid grab, torture, family ransom calls
- •Brokering payouts with cash and vehicles under time pressure
- •Cartel enforcement groups (e.g., Zetas) and systemic violence tactics
- •Corruption at ports/checkpoints as a known operational reality
- 1:49:03 – 2:05:00
Shift to domestic terrorism: infiltrating 'The Base' and accelerationist ideology
Scott explains how he moved onto the Joint Terrorism Task Force and into neo-Nazi/accelerationist investigations—especially after public events raised the threat profile. He details the recruitment pipeline, vetting, and the core goal: accelerating societal collapse toward an ethnostate.
- •JTTF move and rise in domestic terrorism focus post-Charlottesville
- •The Base recruitment via Gab/ProtonMail, then Wire app interviews
- •Accelerationism / ‘siege culture’: chaos operations to hasten collapse
- •Legal challenge: First Amendment protections and no federal domestic terrorism statute
- 2:05:00 – 2:26:31
Hate camp in Georgia: paramilitary training, pagan blots, goat sacrifice, and LSD
Scott describes field meetings with The Base, including firearms/tactics sessions and an escalating series of pagan rituals. The story culminates in the theft and sacrifice of a ram, drinking blood, and a chaotic LSD-fueled sequence that derailed training and intensified Scott’s sense of moral contamination.
- •Surprising competence: young members learning tactics via gaming culture
- •Asatru/Norse mythology repurposed into white supremacist ritual practice
- •Animal theft + sacrifice logistics and safety risks (firearm mishandling)
- •Propaganda production: burning American flags and Bibles while filming
- 2:26:31 – 2:46:50
From ideology to plots: murder planning, boogaloo fantasies, and the takedown
Scott outlines how investigators distinguished ‘drunk talk’ from actionable plots—casing targets and planning murders with extensive anti-forensics measures. He then describes the operational endgame: coordinating SWAT, executing a ruse extraction, and arrests across multiple jurisdictions as the chat group realizes a federal undercover penetrated them.
- •Murder plot planning: DNA control measures, tape-sealing clothing, disposable vehicles
- •Trigger-event thinking: using rallies/chaos to spark wider conflict
- •Operational tempo and physical toll as takedown week approaches
- •Chat-group fallout as affidavits reveal an undercover inside The Base
