The Surprising Psychology Behind the Secrets Everyone Keeps | The Mel Robbins Podcast

1. 0:00 – 2:27

   Intro

   1. MRMel Robbins0:03

      Prepare yourself, because right now, you and I are gonna discuss something that we've never spoken about. The topic? Secrets. We all have secrets. I wanna help you free yourself of the burden of carrying your secrets and your family's secrets, and that's why I wanted to talk about it. Because keeping the secret, it's the easy part. The hard part is forcing yourself to live with it. Let's change that. (instrumental music) Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I am so glad you tuned in today because I am on the edge of my seat right now because of the conversation we're gonna have. I have been talking about this topic with my friends and my family for a long time, but I wanted to wait until I found the perfect expert before you and I broached this subject. So prepare yourself, because right now, you and I are gonna discuss something that we've never spoken about. The topic? Secrets. Why you keep 'em, and how the secrets that you hold are directly impacting your self-esteem, your relationships, your health, and how they're holding you back from living the life you deserve. My mission today is simple: I wanna help you free yourself of the burden of carrying your secrets and your family's secrets. Dr. Michael Slepian is a bestselling author, psychologist, and an associate professor of leadership and ethics at Columbia Business School, and a visiting scholar at Stanford. According to Dr. Slepian's 10-year research study, you probably have 13 secrets. No, not probably. You do. Five of which you've never told anyone, and you're not alone. We all have secrets. In fact, I asked five million of my Instagram followers to share their secrets, and boy oh boy, they sure did. Just wait until you hear what fellow listeners of this podcast are struggling with in secret. And that's why I wanted to talk about it, because keeping the secret, it's the easy part. The hard part is forcing yourself to live with it. Let's change that. Please help me welcome Dr. Michael Slepian to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

   2. MSDr. Michael Slepian2:19

      Thanks for having me.

   3. MRMel Robbins2:20

      I am so glad you're here. You were inspired to write your book, The Secret Life of Secrets, because of a secret in your own

2. 2:27 – 10:39

   The jaw-dropping secret that inspired this conversation today

   1. MRMel Robbins2:27

      life. Can you tell us that story?

   2. MSDr. Michael Slepian2:30

      Yeah. This story takes place 10 years ago, pretty close to 10 years ago at, um, this point in time. And I had just started my new research on secrecy at the time, and I was presenting this new research on secrecy as part of a job interview at Columbia. And after a very long day, uh, a good day, but a sort of a tough day of presenting my research, having meeting after meeting after meeting, having dinner with, with the people who would become my future colleagues, and drinks, and all the way late into the night, this, this very long day talking about secrets, um, as a research topic. And at the end of that day, around midnight, I get a call from my dad. And I'm like, "That's so weird." Um, he wouldn't normally call me at this hour. Um, but I was actually just still having my drinks, uh, with, with these folks who I was interviewing with, and then he called again. And I thought, "Oh, no, something, something bad has happened."

   3. MRMel Robbins3:26

      Mm.

   4. MSDr. Michael Slepian3:26

      "Um, his family, th- there must be, like, a death in the family or something." And so I call him back and he says, "Michael, I need to tell you something. Um, maybe you could sit down for this."

   5. MRMel Robbins3:37

      Oh, God.

   6. MSDr. Michael Slepian3:38

      "I, I'm calling to tell you that I'm not biologically able to have children." He was calling to tell me that he was not my biological father, and this was a secret that they had been keeping from me and my younger brother. And then, surprise, he's actually my half-brother born from a different donor. And they told me this was a secret they planned on never telling us, ever. And that was, of course, shocking. And, and, you know, it's a this kind of thing, "What do I do with this information?" I- and it wasn't the truth that was sort of shifting the ground under my feet. It wasn't learning that fact. I quickly thought, "This is okay." (laughs) "I'm okay with this." Um, "This is the reality and, and, you know, it, this doesn't change anything between us, but why are you telling me this? And, and why now? And why didn't you tell me sooner?" It, it was the secrecy that was harder to understand.

   7. MRMel Robbins4:40

      What was his answer for why then?

   8. MSDr. Michael Slepian4:44

      So essentially what had happened was a couple of days before my brother found out, uh, my mom told my brother. Uh, she started telling him a story about being in an argument with our grandfather, her father, and my brother was like, "That's so weird. I've never heard of you ever having an argument with your dad ever." Like, "What were you arguing about?" And she said, "Oh, I can't tell you." And he was like, "What?" He's like, "I, it's, it re- it's related to a secret that I promised your father I would never tell you." (laughs)

   9. MRMel Robbins5:11

      (laughs)

   10. MSDr. Michael Slepian5:11

       Which, as you can imagine, is a great way to, to make the other person insist that you reveal the secret, which is what happened. And they wanted to not tell me before my interview in case it would be distracting, and they were very correct to do so. Could my dad have waited till the next morning? Yeah.

   11. MRMel Robbins5:30

       (laughs)

   12. MSDr. Michael Slepian5:31

       (laughs) But he, you know, he told me that night when the interview was over.

   13. MRMel Robbins5:35

       Did they know that you were studying secrets?

   14. MSDr. Michael Slepian5:38

       Yes. Yes, they did. My mom would later tell me one of the reasons she thinks she essentially let it slip when talking to my brother is she was really ready to reveal this secret, um, and that was not part of the plan. There were multiple people who had a pact to never tell us essentially, and my mom was ready to, to essentially break that. And, and she'll say the reason she started becoming ready to reveal the secret...... is because she was reading about my research and, and realizing like, "Oh, gosh, secrets are not good for you. I, I have to tell them."

   15. MRMel Robbins6:17

       How does it make you feel knowing that your research on secrets led to this happening in your family?

   16. MSDr. Michael Slepian6:25

       It's, it, it's, I, I don't know. I can't find the word for it, but it's, you know, it's gratifying and, and just so s- sort of odd and strange. You know, the, uh, this sort of story begins when I'm first starting my, when I'm first starting this research on secrecy, and I learn this big major secret. And then 10 years later, um, writing this book about the past 10 years of research I've been doing, and I'm interviewing my parents for this book, and then I le- found out that the reason that I learned that secret in the first place is because of my research, um, which I had started 10 years prior is just, it's, I'm glad to know, uh, and I'm glad that that is a secret they don't have to keep any longer. I, I think they could have told me sooner, and I, I certainly don't fault them for not doing so, but it, it's good to be able to talk about it.

   17. MRMel Robbins7:22

       Well, I think you've done everybody in your family this extraordinary, like, service. You've given everybody a gift because after really digging into your research, one thing that I've concluded is that secrets are like birds trapped in cages, and-

   18. MSDr. Michael Slepian7:39

       Mm-hmm.

   19. MRMel Robbins7:39

       ... they want to be free, and that's why they torture us so much. And, you know, why did you want to look at secrets in the beginning? I mean, do you kind of feel like this is the universe or God or some sort of cosmic intervention for why you started studying (laughs) secrets to begin with?

   20. MSDr. Michael Slepian7:58

       So when I first started studying secrecy that I was studying was this idea that people talk about secrets as if they have physical weight. Uh, people talk about being weighed down by a secret, as if they were carrying a weight on their backs when, when a secret is coming to their mind, and we saw some evidence that that is kind of what it's like to ha- to have a secret. When people are thinking about a secret that they had, the world around them seem more challenging to interact with. And so this sense of burden, it, it really, you can really feel it in a way that, that can be hard to articulate, but we... To try to measure that, we essentially ask people to make judgments that we know actually vary by being physically encumbered. And so if you're tired or out of shape or carrying a bunch of grocery bags, you'll judge a hill as steeper because it, it truly is now gonna be harder to scale that hill if you're, if you're compromised in some way, if your resources are compromised in some way. And we essentially found the same thing when people were thinking about their secrets. We asked them to think about a significant secret, and when they were doing so, they just judged the world around them as more challenging to interact with. Hills appeared to be steeper. Distances appeared to be farther, as if that the secret was burdening them to the point where they felt like they had less ability or resources to tackle whatever lies ahead of them. They're actually held back by a secret. And when I started presenting that research to people, some people thought, "Oh, this is very interesting," and that's when I realized we don't know anything about secrecy. And so I, then I got serious about studying secrecy for itself and to start understanding the most basic questions. What secrets do people keep? How many? What does it look like when a secret comes to mind? And it, it was something different than, than what the sort of prior assumptions suggested from before.

   21. MRMel Robbins9:55

       Ooh, we're all on the edge of our seats. What kind of secrets, based on your research, are the top secrets that people keep?

   22. MSDr. Michael Slepian10:03

       S- so that was one of the first things to, to look into, this idea of, you know, if we wanna learn anything about secrecy, we should look at people's real life experiences. We should study people's real secrets, because studying sort of made up secrets in the laboratory, it just might not tell us anything about r- about real world secrecy. And so we f- asked a couple thousand people, "What's a secret you're keeping right now?" And so from the couple thousand people who told us about our secrets, we developed this list of 38 categories of secrets, and we know this list turns out to be really comprehensive because now we've given this list of secrets to 50,000 people. And

3. 10:39 – 13:56

   Curious about the kinds of secrets people keep? Here are the top 10.

   1. MSDr. Michael Slepian10:39

      on average, people, at any given time point, have 13 of these 38 categories of secrets. And so in some ways, that's a undercount because you might have multiple secrets that fit a given category. And in some ways it's an overcount because some of these are secrets we haven't thought about in a long time. But the important point here is that it only takes a single sheet of paper for me to tell you the whole universe of secrets that people tend to keep. On average, the person will, at any given moment, have 13 secrets from that list of 38. Uh, we see 97% of people say they have at least one of those secrets right now. When we ask someone open-ended, "What's a secret you're keeping?" 92% of the time it fits one of the items on the list. So we can, on a single page of paper, we can really cover well the universe of secrets that people keep and, and what they are.

   2. MRMel Robbins11:36

      Can you give us the, like, top 10 big categories?

   3. MSDr. Michael Slepian11:39

      Yeah. So, um, the most common secret is having told a significant lie. Um, you can, you can lie to keep a secret. You can also not lie to keep a secret. Someone can ask you something, and you can honestly say, "Oh, I don't wanna talk about that." Um, so lying is a way to keep a secret. It's not the only way to keep a secret. There's lots of other ways to keep a secret that we'll talk about. Um, and then a lie itself can be a secret, uh, because of some significant untruth we've told, um, and we don't want that to be learned by other people. Um, after that number one, lying number two is romantic desire. Then it goes finances.... sexual behavior, um, one really interesting one that we call extra-relational thoughts. You're in some kind of romantic relationship with one person and you're having some kind of romantic thought about another person. Um, that's something people don't talk about. Family secrets are very common, secret ambitions, um, discontent with your social life or physical discontent. The list goes on and on. Mental health, violations of trust, and, and so on.

   4. MRMel Robbins12:48

      Well, what's interesting is we put out a call for people's secrets to nearly five million followers on Instagram, (laughs) and I'll tell you what, first of all, y'all showed up and-

   5. MSDr. Michael Slepian13:04

      (laughs)

   6. MRMel Robbins13:04

      ... uh, poured your secrets, uh, into me, and we're gonna reveal some of them throughout this interview and kinda unpack your research with these real-life secrets that people have right now that are fans of this show. But I will confirm that every single one, and we received hundreds and hundreds and hundreds, within, within hours, we had 36 pages of them printed out-

   7. MSDr. Michael Slepian13:31

      Mm-hmm.

   8. MRMel Robbins13:32

      ... um, that they all fall within your top list of 38, which we'll link to in the show notes. And I think it's very interesting that everyone, yes, you listening, has an average of 13. And maybe that's why we should start with a definition. What is a secret?

   9. MSDr. Michael Slepian13:52

      Yeah, so I define secrecy, and then the definition,

4. 13:56 – 16:16

   How exactly do we define a secret?

   1. MSDr. Michael Slepian13:56

      um, turns out to be important, uh, I define secrecy as the intent to withhold information from one or more people, and the reason why we need to define secrecy that way is, you know, there's, there are plenty of secrets that you might keep that you just never have to actually conceal in conversation. They just don't come up in conversation. People don't go around asking you, um, "Have you ever cheated on your partner? Have you ever, were you ever abused as a child?" You know, "Have you had an abortion?" These aren't topics we typically encounter. Um, and so there might be a bunch of secrets that some, you know, that come to mind sometimes, but that you don't have to actively work to keep.

   2. MRMel Robbins14:38

      Hmm.

   3. MSDr. Michael Slepian14:39

      Um, and so, and it turns out that for most of our secrets, we can think about them quite a lot, but we don't have to hide them very often. And so we don't want to define secrecy as an action because that's a really small slice of the overall experience of secrecy. We only sometimes hide our secrets, uh, in conversation, and most importantly, our secrets exist before those conversations and our secrets exist after those conversations. They don't just disappear, um, after you've successfully hid it, right? Um, and so the moment you intend to hold information back from, from someone, that's the moment you have a secret. Imagine someone is traveling for work and they cheat on their partner. They've never done it before, they'll never do it again, but at that moment, they decide, "Oh, I can't tell this to my partner. It would destroy our relationship." That's the moment they have a secret, even before they have the sort of opportunity to, to hide it.

   4. MRMel Robbins15:37

      Got it. So a more benign example might be you're supposed to be doing something at work and you're actually out running errands, and your boss calls, and you step somewhere where they can't hear the announcer at Target, and you conceal the fact that you're not anywhere near your desk.

   5. MSDr. Michael Slepian15:58

      Mm-hmm.

   6. MRMel Robbins15:59

      That is another example of a secret.

   7. MSDr. Michael Slepian16:01

      Yeah.

   8. MRMel Robbins16:01

      Do you have to feel bad?

   9. MSDr. Michael Slepian16:04

      Nope.

   10. MRMel Robbins16:04

       It's just-

   11. MSDr. Michael Slepian16:05

       Nope.

   12. MRMel Robbins16:05

       ... the intent to not disclose something.

   13. MSDr. Michael Slepian16:07

       Exactly.

   14. MRMel Robbins16:08

       So are secrets good or bad? I mean, are there some good secrets?

   15. MSDr. Michael Slepian16:14

       Yes, there are some

5. 16:16 – 19:02

   Are there any good secrets?

   1. MSDr. Michael Slepian16:16

      good secrets. Um, and, you know, whether secrets are good, it's going to depend, (laughs) the, uh, the sort of standard psychological, standard psychologist answer. Um, you know, keeping a secret can protect a relationship, and, and that can feel good or, or be good, but it can also be burdensome at the same time. Um, and then, you know, sometimes people keep secrets about good things. We, we can talk about that, but that's, that's a much rarer form of secrecy. It certainly happens all the time, but it's sort of eclipsed by all the negative secrets we keep.

   2. MRMel Robbins16:51

      Right. It doesn't bother you to keep the fact that you're planning a surprise birthday party for somebody.

   3. MSDr. Michael Slepian16:55

      That's right.

   4. MRMel Robbins16:56

      But it does eat away with you that you got caught at Target shopping when you should have been working-

   5. MSDr. Michael Slepian17:03

      Mm-hmm.

   6. MRMel Robbins17:03

      ... or some of the bigger ones that we'll get into. Is keeping a secret something that is innate in all human beings, or is it something that we learn to do?

   7. MSDr. Michael Slepian17:14

      A... Another psychologist's answer, it's both. Um, (laughs) uh, there's some evidence to suggest that, you know, we're not the only beings on the planet who, who keep secrets. You know, there's some really fascinating studies on, on chimpanzees, and they seem able to keep secrets too. Um, not as complex as ours, but, you know, it looks a lot like secrecy, the things they're able to do. And children start to keep secrets as soon as they figure out how to, um, as soon as they understand that the things that are inside their head are not necessarily in another person's head unless they tell them.

   8. MRMel Robbins17:53

      Hmm.

   9. MSDr. Michael Slepian17:53

      Um, they start understanding that people have these mental worlds that are unknown until discovered or unknown until shared. And as soon as they figure that out, they realize, like, "Oh, maybe I can not get in trouble for this spill if, if I can hide it." (laughs)

   10. MRMel Robbins18:09

       Hmm.

   11. MSDr. Michael Slepian18:09

       Um, and so it seems to be a pretty natural way of interacting with people around us, um, or, or choosing not to.

   12. MRMel Robbins18:18

       So let's talk about the hardest part of keeping a secret.What, can you, like maybe let's use your family secret.

   13. MSDr. Michael Slepian18:28

       Yeah. So it turns out that what's hard about having a secret is not that we have to hide it, it's that we have to live with it, alone in our thoughts.

   14. MRMel Robbins18:40

       Mm.

   15. MSDr. Michael Slepian18:40

       And so for my family secret, it wasn't a secret that they have to, that they had to hide very often, you know, it wasn't something that they had to frequently hold back from us in conversation, and that didn't mean the secret didn't exist though, 'cause sometimes they would think about the secret, you know, they might think about the secret after that

6. 19:02 – 23:28

   Keeping the secret isn’t the hard part; the hardest part is this.

   1. MSDr. Michael Slepian19:02

      conversation, uh, it might sort of linger in their thoughts, and that turns out to be where the harms are. Um, but we're, the whole point of having a secret is you hide it when necessary, and so when those moments come, even if they feel awkward, you're, you're pretty prepared for those moments, and, and because people can't literally read your thoughts, it's, it's something you can do with, with relative success and, and ease. You just don't say the thing, uh, that you're not supposed to say. But you have all the time in the world to reflect back on the secret, and wonder whether you're making the right choice, and then maybe you start doubting yourself, or maybe you start feeling bad for keeping the secret. Um, these are things you don't have the time or bandwidth to think about in the moment when you're holding it back in conversation, but at all the other moments, your mind can go to these places that, that are harmful, or that make the secrecy difficult.

   2. MRMel Robbins20:00

      You know what I, what I find so fascinating is that you're basically saying that concealing it's the easy part, living with it is the really damaging part. And when I think about secrets that I had, you know, in my past, for example, the weight of that was crushing. Hiding the fact, and I'm, I'm thinking specifically about cheating on boyfriends when I was in my 20s.

   3. MSDr. Michael Slepian20:27

      Mm-hmm.

   4. MRMel Robbins20:27

      And holding the secret, managing the information, feeling like an asshole. I still to this day regret and think about the things that I did when I was very self-destructive when I was younger that I kept secret for a long time.

   5. MSDr. Michael Slepian20:47

      Yeah.

   6. MRMel Robbins20:47

      And how liberating it is to be able to talk about these things, and I know that for me personally, and I would imagine this is true for your parents or anybody that has a secret, you're so focused on the other people in your life, and how they will judge you or react, that I think we tip the scales toward protecting other people, and we don't realize, and this is what your research bears, we don't realize how profoundly secrets negatively impact you.

   7. MSDr. Michael Slepian21:22

      Yeah.

   8. MRMel Robbins21:22

      Have you discovered in your research like if there's a physical, mental, emotional cost to this?

   9. MSDr. Michael Slepian21:32

      Yes. So, so we can see in the research that, you know, there's, there are so many reasons why un- unfortunately, uh, there are so many reasons why just having to live with a secret and your thoughts can be harmful. You know, if there's something really big going on or something that's upsetting, or some struggle you're, you're working through and you're choosing to be entirely alone with it, you're just not gonna develop the healthiest way of thinking about it, you know? Healthy perspectives, those, those come from chatting about these things with other people, getting other people's perspectives can kind of curb our, our overly negative view of things, and, you know, those, those overly negative views don't get tempered when, when we just hold back from everyone. And then you might feel feelings of shame when a secret comes to mind, you might feel really isolated with a secret, you might feel really inauthentic for keeping it, you might feel at a loss for what to do, and what do you do with those feelings? You just have to revisit them every time the secret comes to mind if you're not gonna find a way forward.

   10. MRMel Robbins22:39

       Well, I, it's very clear in the, listening to the way that you describe this that the secrets that you keep, keep you disconnected from yourself.

   11. MSDr. Michael Slepian22:50

       Yeah.

   12. MRMel Robbins22:50

       Because by shoving it down, managing information, feeling the shame and isolation and uncertainty that comes with holding, again this physical language that we use, you're holding this secret, solo, that you are eroding this trust with yourself to just own your life experience. And I, you know, I mentioned that we had, uh, put a call out on Instagram. We have, uh, over five million followers, and the secrets poured in,

7. 23:28 – 27:22

   Listen to the secrets my listeners revealed. Recognize yourself?

   1. MRMel Robbins23:28

      and as I read some of these, I want you listening to just feel the weight of what it must be like for this person to live with this, and if there's anything that, you know, you wanna weigh in, I'll pause briefly, Michael, between each one, uh, as I read what our listeners are saying. These are secrets that they have right now. Here's the first one. "I struggle with compulsion, whether it's finances, shopping, purchases, binge eating." "I'm desperately unhappy in my marriage, but I'm too scared to make the break." I would imagine that's one you see a lot.

   2. MSDr. Michael Slepian24:10

      Mm-hmm.

   3. MRMel Robbins24:11

      We saw that one over and over.

   4. MSDr. Michael Slepian24:13

      Yeah. Yeah, romantic discontent is, is their (laughs) label for that one.

   5. MRMel Robbins24:18

      And you think you're the only one.

   6. MSDr. Michael Slepian24:21

      Yeah.

   7. MRMel Robbins24:22

      "My husband and I are struggling financially.""I've never been satisfied in the bedroom with my partner, and I love them anyway." "I've fallen in love with somebody that isn't my husband. Nothing has happened, but still I feel so ashamed." "I'm keeping a secret from my partner that I took out a high-interest loan." "I had an affair with an employee, and it gave me so much anxiety, in the end, I had to move." "I didn't graduate from high school." "Everyone I know thinks I'm thriving post-divorce, and I'm worse off than I've ever been." What are your thoughts about these?

   8. MSDr. Michael Slepian25:09

      Yeah. So, you know, they all jumped out at me in sort of their individual ways, you know. When I think about the, the relationship ones, which is a huge theme, um, that we'll see in the Secrets People Keep, um... You know, think about the person who is not thriving after their divorce, and, and they're just holding that information back. That's, that's someone who really, really would benefit from others' help, and it's not because we're helpless. It's because other people just have so much to offer that is really hard to find on our own, you know. Someone could just hear you out. Someone could just listen to you. Someone could just validate your experience. Like, that's, "I'm s- I'm so sorry you're going through that." Just, um, you know, sympathy, empathy, uh, these sort of little morsels that we get from talking about these things are really helpful. Um, it's just really hard to s- to struggle with something alone, and bringing anybody, most people, into the conversation can, can help so much. Um, and another one, again, on the theme of relationships, the person who said that they're in love with someone else. They've, uh, this someone who's not their husband. They haven't done anything about... They haven't m- you know, done any wrong actions, you know. This is a common theme we see too, where people will feel a thought they've had or a feeling they have is a secret that they hold, even though they haven't done anything wrong. It, it just goes to show you how weighty a secret can be when we're just talking about a collection of thoughts or a collection of feelings, not even an action. Um, but even just a few thoughts or a few feelings we have, that those can feel like a weighty secret on their own.

   9. MRMel Robbins27:05

      The other one that popped out at me is, "I didn't graduate from high school."

   10. MSDr. Michael Slepian27:09

       Yeah.

   11. MRMel Robbins27:09

       And the reason why that struck me is that if you keep that a secret, it means you feel ashamed, and the secret-keeping makes the fact

8. 27:22 – 30:06

   Some secrets are no big deal, but we make them big in our heads.

   1. MRMel Robbins27:22

      that you didn't graduate from high school somehow a problem, you know? Like, you think there's something wrong with it, and so keeping it a secret makes it an even bigger issue in your life, when most people, if you tell them that, won't give a shit-

   2. MSDr. Michael Slepian27:40

      Yeah.

   3. MRMel Robbins27:40

      ... and will probably acknowledge you for how you're successful and, you know, you've done a great job without it, and see it as something that is almost, like, a thing to be proud of.

   4. MSDr. Michael Slepian27:54

      Yeah. I, I think when we... These things can seem so much bigger and loom so much larger in our heads, and we... Putting them out in the world is never as bad as we think it's going to be. Um, that, you know, I was at a party with a friend, and all of a sudden, she just said, "I have a secret to, to tell you. Um, I didn't do well in college." And I was like, "Well, what made you think to share that?" And she just was like, "I realized I didn't have... That it's not a secret I have to keep," and, and she was right. Of course, learning that my really good friend didn't have good grades in college, it's like, "Okay, that's totally fine," you know? That doesn't change our relationship. When we learn new things about other people, they're just drops in the bucket of all our experiences with them and all our histories with them, and learning something new, even something surprising, even something difficult, it's not gonna just change everything about your relationship, um.

   5. MRMel Robbins28:49

      So you said it's never as bad as you think when you tell a secret. It might be a little uncomfortable or absolutely awful the moment it comes out of your mouth, but, you know, just in your example alone, you adjusted pretty quickly to what the truth is.

   6. MSDr. Michael Slepian29:06

      Yeah.

   7. MRMel Robbins29:06

      It was the fact that it was withheld from you for so long that truly upset you and bothered you, and I think we've all had experiences like that, where somebody confesses something, you're pissed off, you're disappointed, whatever, and then you forgive them, and you move forward. But you're kind of upset that they didn't come to you sooner. But knowing that intellectually doesn't help us actually confess our secrets, which I'm kinda gathering telling somebody is one of the best ways you can start to relieve this burden. Um, one of the topics I wanna unpack with you, because secrecy is very closely connected to shame and guilt.

   8. MSDr. Michael Slepian29:47

      Mm-hmm.

   9. MRMel Robbins29:47

      And so I wanna talk a little bit about secrecy versus privacy. So what is the line between having a secret versus, "This is information about me that I just would like

9. 30:06 – 32:46

   So what’s the difference between privacy and a secret?

   1. MRMel Robbins30:06

      to keep private"?

   2. MSDr. Michael Slepian30:07

      So not everything that people don't know about us is a secret, right? There's certain things people don't know about us, just because it's never come up in conversation. And, you know, there's a subset of those things that we, or consider private because i- it's just something we would never talk about. Um, for example, maybe you don't talk about your sex life with your friends, or maybe you don't talk about your sex life with your family, (laughs) for example. Uh, and-These are things that are not secrets. It may not be secret that you have a sex life, but if it's just the kind of thing people don't talk about, or it's the kind of thing you don't talk about, um, you know, that might be considered, considered something private but not secret. Um, if you had a specific, for example, sexual experience that you would not want people to know about, and something you intentionally would withhold if it was ever relevant to a conversation, now we're talking about a secret.

   3. MRMel Robbins31:04

      It's interesting, 'cause I feel like the word secret feels like I've done something bad, and the word private feels like I'm just not freaking telling you. Like, that's private information. I'm in control of this (laughs) . And there's may- maybe it's just wordsmithing, but there is a huge difference between shame and guilt. And I personally believe that the area that is most important for everyone to pay attention to when it relates to your research is how secrets create shame. And shame being not that the thing that I did, the cheating, was bad, it's that I'm a despicable person for doing it. The fact that I didn't graduate from high school is bad. No, no, no. It's, I'm a stupid imbecile, and there's something wrong with me. The shame and the weight where you indict yourself, and that's why I wanted to talk to you, because I don't think any of us realize how damaging it is to keep a secret because you are piling shame on yourself, because you are judging yourself when you don't feel free to disclose certain things because you feel ashamed of yourself for having this secret.

   4. MSDr. Michael Slepian32:17

      Yeah.

   5. MRMel Robbins32:17

      What does your research bear out?

   6. MSDr. Michael Slepian32:20

      So that's, that's exactly right. You know, we all make mistakes. Every human on earth makes mistakes, and that's okay, right? Uh, we, we all have done that. We all have done something that we deeply regret. In the face of these mistakes or admissions of guilt or, you know, things we feel that are wrong, rather, you know, misdeeds, we could say, "Oh,

10. 32:46 – 36:28

    Here’s how to frame a mistake instead of feeling shame.

    1. MSDr. Michael Slepian32:46

       I'm a terrible person," um, and that's what we call shame. "I'm a bad person." And what's really problematic about that way of thinking about the issue at hand is it's really hard to find a way to change that view. If you feel like you're a bad person, you feel like, "Well, I guess there's nothing I can do about that-

    2. MRMel Robbins33:06

       Mm-hmm.

    3. MSDr. Michael Slepian33:06

       "...I'm just not good." Um, but if instead of thinking about how this reflects on you, if we think about how it reflects on your behavior, how it reflects on your actions, you could say, "I've done something bad," and, "I've done something bad," is a much healthier way of thinking about the problem than, "I'm a bad person." And when you think, "I've done something bad," that's not shame. That's guilt, and guilt is good in this context, because if you're saying, "Okay, I've done something bad," that means you could do something differently next time. Your, your past doesn't dictate your future. You can, you can not do that bad thing again. You can do something to correct for that, if that's what you need to do, or just promise to learn your lesson and, and not make that mistake again. When we feel guilty, we feel motivated to, to do better, um, and it's hard to get to that point when we're overly focused on how bad we feel about ourselves, when we feel ashamed.

    4. MRMel Robbins34:05

       I want to highlight what you just said, like, take my imaginary yellow highlighter, because I want to make sure you listening to us right now, that you really got something, 'cause I think Michael just handed us a script from 10 years of his research that you can borrow, which is that secret that you're holding on to, I want you to start to think you're a good person who did a bad thing. That does not make you a bad person. And when you go to confess to somebody or you go to talk to somebody about it, because you realize you are a good person and you have learned from that thing that you did, and you no longer are going to carry the burden of the secret, that you're a good person that did a bad thing. And part of taking responsibility for it is being able to talk about it and what you learned from it and to separate what you did from who you are as a person, because, you know, I've just confessed to everybody that, you know, the thing that I regret the most is being a cheater in, in college and in law school, and I hate that about myself. And yet at the same time, I know I was just a good person that was really struggling. I was a good person with crushing anxiety. I was a good person that felt really lost. I was a good person that was coping in very self-destructive ways. And when I can look at myself that way, I don't have to hold the secret, 'cause I'm not saying, "I'm a shitty person, therefore I have to hide this thing 'cause I'm afraid of what people are going to think about me." I have to prioritize, Michael, what I think about myself, and so steal this from Michael's research, everybody. You're a good person, and the thing that you're holding on to as a secret is a bad thing that you did that you're going to learn from and you're going to move on from. How can parents, 'cause we have a lot of parents and also young adults that listen to this, how does the ways in which we grew up impact how we deal with secrets as adults, Michael?

    5. MSDr. Michael Slepian36:13

       So children, you know, as soon as they start learning how to keep secrets, they'll, they'll try to do so, not always successfully. Um, you know, when we're talking about three-year-olds, they're not very sophisticated secret keepers, but they'll try. Uh, you know, they'll say like, "Oh, I didn't, I didn't have any of the cookies," in spite

11. 36:28 – 41:03

    Here’s what parents should say when their kids admit a secret to them.

    1. MSDr. Michael Slepian36:28

       of having cookie crumbs on their lips, for example. Um, and so it's, it's a natural place for kids to be at that stage, to use secrecy as a way of getting out of trouble. Um, but...... that's not a problem. Um, that's, that's, that's normal, right? And where the problems begin is if children or, you know, teenagers, young teenagers are ashamed about something, or they feel like they're struggling with something. Maybe they're being bullied, you know, something like this, something that needs to be addressed in some way. And if they're keeping those kinds of secrets, now we're talking about the kind of harmful secrets that we see in adults. And so, what we want to do as parents is make kids feel comfortable bringing something difficult to talk about to you, and, and feeling that, you know, maybe they've done something wrong. You know, maybe they've broken some rules or they've got in some kind of trouble, and they know if they'll tell their parents that they're going to get in more trouble. Hmm. And so they might think, "Well, I, I'll just not tell them." And so the challenge for parents is, how can you open that door for confession, and how can you keep it open? How can you sort of express the disappointment that is sort of natural to do so without sort of making it harder for them? You know, how can you make them feel comfortable coming to you with trouble, essentially, and -Can we role play?

    2. MRMel Robbins38:06

       Can we role play real quick?

    3. MSDr. Michael Slepian38:08

       Yes.

    4. MRMel Robbins38:08

       Why don't you be the parent, and I'm the kid? Because I, I'm serious. Like, we need scripts because I would love to have you coach us and give us scripts on, let's just start with a parent-child situation. You're, uh, reading in bed. I've gone to a party. I'm a junior in high school. "Dad, um, I, I, I, I, I, I, I'm in trouble. Uh, I'm at this party. I was drinking. The police showed up. Um, I, I'm sorry. I don't know what to do." What should the parent say, Michael?

    5. MSDr. Michael Slepian38:40

       Yeah. Um, you know, the parent should say, like, "I'm here to help you," essentially. "And, you know, let me talk you through this. Let me walk you through this. This is, this is something that we can get through together, uh, that this is going to be okay. And, and yes, I, I, I'm upset that you weren't honest with me, but, you know, I understand, I understand how you got here. Um, and I want you to... I'm glad you could bring this to me, okay, bring this to me 'cause, 'cause we can work on it together."

    6. MRMel Robbins39:16

       I literally just felt my shoulders drop. I love you, dad. Now, that was great. And, do, but when the kid comes home, I think we make the mistake where then we ground them.

    7. MSDr. Michael Slepian39:27

       Yeah, and so, I think the other thing to think about is, before we get to this moment, um, you know, when, when you're really, when you're really frustrated with, with your child or really annoyed or really angry, you want to, you probably need to communicate that, but you, what you want to try to avoid is, like, a, an angry outburst.

    8. MRMel Robbins39:48

       Mm.

    9. MSDr. Michael Slepian39:48

       Um, because, you know, when you're navigating these situations, you're modeling coping behaviors that your children will pick up on. And if, and if they learn that when I t- when I admit something to you, you just lash out at me, they're going to learn, "Maybe that's not something I should do. Uh, maybe next time I'm in this situation, I should just keep it to myself." And that's, that's when the harms of secrecy start.

    10. MRMel Robbins40:16

        Well, two things that have made a difference, or at least I think they have, is that I've always thought to myself, "If my kid's in trouble, I don't want their first thought to be, 'Oh, fuck, my mom's going to kill me.' I want their first thought to be, 'I have to call my mom. She's going to help.'" And I try not to express the disappointment in that moment 'cause I know that we will be talking about this incident for weeks, months, maybe years to come. I want to keep unpacking this because I think a lot of us have been in a situation where somebody that we know is keeping a secret from us, and we kind of get it. And so, I would love tools from you in how to approach these. And so let's take a scenario where you've got friends that are constantly getting together and they're not inviting you, and they're sort of sly about it, or

12. 41:03 – 43:52

    What do you say when friends keep you out of the group?

    1. MRMel Robbins41:03

       they've planned a trip and you sort of pick up on it. What is the best way to broach with somebody that you know that they're keeping something from you, without coming across like some psycho, stalkerish, you know, insecure freak?

    2. MSDr. Michael Slepian41:22

       So in that situation, we want to say like, "Hey, you know, I know these kinds of things can be difficult to talk about, but I'm, I'm open to talking about them because I..." You know, in this case, I, I think that might be better than, than secret keeping. Secrets are a chance to help each other with something.

    3. MRMel Robbins41:48

       Mm.

    4. MSDr. Michael Slepian41:48

       Um, they don't have to be this thing that separates us and, and, and makes us sort of turn inward.

    5. MRMel Robbins41:56

       I love that, that you can use it as a way to actually be closer with somebody. "I know you guys are planning a trip, which is totally fine, but, you know, I'd love to talk about the fact that you feel the need to keep it secret." Um, what about in a relationship? You think that somebody's cheating on you, and you have your suspicions, and you don't even really have evidence, or maybe you do. You've, you've seen a text message or something. What is the best and most effective way to open the door? Because typically what happens in these situations is you're emotionally triggered, and you accuse, and then there's the defense and the standoff. How do you even approach this topic knowing that somebody's likely going to lie to you, but to truly-

    6. MSDr. Michael Slepian42:46

       Yeah.

    7. MRMel Robbins42:46

       ... invite the, the discussion, the open the door?

    8. MSDr. Michael Slepian42:50

       So, I really like this question 'cause it's- it's hard. (laughs)

    9. MRMel Robbins42:55

       Right.

    10. MSDr. Michael Slepian42:55

        This is a really tough one. And-

    11. MRMel Robbins42:56

        Well, let's- let's take our example, Michael. So let me just-

    12. MSDr. Michael Slepian42:59

        Yeah.

    13. MRMel Robbins42:59

        ... read to you this woman, right? Where she says, "I've fallen in love with someone that isn't my husband. Nothing has happened, but I still feel so ashamed." Let's say that this person's spouse just has a suspicion. How does the person's spouse open up this dialogue?

    14. MSDr. Michael Slepian43:25

        In that situation, I was talking about the most common secrets. Um, I'm looking at my list in front of me. One, two, three, four. Number five is what we call extra-relational thoughts, um, by which I mean having a romantic thought about someone who's not your romantic partner. This- this isn't-

    15. MRMel Robbins43:41

        Or an emotional affair.

    16. MSDr. Michael Slepian43:43

        Or an emotional affair. Um, th- yes. (laughs) Uh, well, we, that's, that one- that one feels bigger to a lot of people, and

13. 43:52 – 49:07

    How do you tell your partner that you’re having an emotional affair?

    1. MSDr. Michael Slepian43:52

       it's totally normal. Um, and I think just knowing that is- is useful information. Um, but among the secrets people keep, it's the one people talk least about. And, you know, maybe normalizing it is- is a step in the right direction. You know, maybe you- you feel like, "Okay, I think my partner is, like, really- really close to this other person or seems to sort of be unavailable to me," um, and the- the, it's not, it- it can be something that we can work through together. It can be something like, "Oh, maybe that this is okay," or- or, "That this is okay, and this is something we can talk about. This is something we can figure out what it means. Maybe we need to do some work together. Maybe, you know, we can, we have some work to do on our end, but..."

    2. MRMel Robbins44:48

       Well, I think that's what you kind of say to yourself to coach yourself up to get the nerve to actually broach the topic, and it is profoundly normal to be attracted to other people. But your partner finding somebody else attractive or leaning on somebody else emotionally is kind of how human beings operate. And so if you can understand that it might not kill your relationship, but it's something that you have to talk about, it's the secrecy of it that really will pull your relationship apart, how would you broach that? Like, what's the first sentence that you say to try to get somebody to open up about a secret?

    3. MSDr. Michael Slepian45:30

       So I think the first sentence is not an accusation. Um, you know, maybe that's not any of the sentences, because that's what might lead to defense, uh, defenses, right? Um, defensive responses. So, you know, you just want to say, "Hey, if there's anything... I just, you, I want you to feel comfortable bringing something to me, and I hope that I, we have that, that I can do that with you." And, you know, I'm not, it's, "I know that this could be difficult to talk about." Um, relationship issues (laughs) is- is really high on the list of- of things people don't want to talk about with their partner. (laughs) So it's- it's just, it's difficult. It- it's awkward. Um, we're not practiced at it. And so, you know, maybe that's- maybe that's the topic of conversation. Like, I, you know, if you feel like there's something we need to talk about or there's something about our relationship that's not as good as it can be, I want you to know that's something I want to talk about, and that's something I want to work through. Um, I probably wouldn't mention this other person that you're wondering about.

    4. MRMel Robbins46:46

       See, see, Michael, I would have taken a totally different approach, 'cause I literally am, uh, you know, having cheated in my past, I literally am the one like, "Yeah, I don't feel there's anything we need to talk about with you, 'cause I'm more comfortable with you not knowing." (laughs) And so I loved where you were going, where you're like, you know, "Look, first of all, I want us to have the kind of relationship where we can talk about, but I, and- and, you know, I want to work through everything with you, and I'm feeling very insecure-

    5. MSDr. Michael Slepian47:15

       Yeah.

    6. MRMel Robbins47:15

       ... about how close you are with so-and-so."

    7. MSDr. Michael Slepian47:18

       Yeah. I- I think that's good, and I think that's a good framing. Um, I think that's a lot better than... What's, what I really like about that is it's, you're- you're still talking about yourself.

    8. MRMel Robbins47:27

       Yes.

    9. MSDr. Michael Slepian47:28

       Um, you're not saying, "I have a problem with what you're doing," but you're saying, "This is making me feel in a way that I feel like I need to bring to you." And I think insecure is a good- a good word for this example.

    10. MRMel Robbins47:42

        Thank you. Um, you know, I want to dig into family secrets, because I was very struck when we asked our audience to share secrets that they were keeping, how many family secrets people felt obligated to keep. And I'm going to give you a couple examples, and then let's talk about them. Um, in one instance, uh, there was a woman that wrote in talking about how she knew that her uncle was making his kids keep a secret from their mother, that every other weekend when they were growing up, their father would take his two daughters fishing with his other woman, and the daughters have kept it from the mother forever. Uh, I've got another listener who wrote in, "Mel, growing up, it was acceptable for me to sit with my parents and get high. I was fortunate enough to know at 14 that that was not going to be me.""Through that, I've become so overly independent, I never know when to ask for help. I feel that because of my parents' lifestyle, we always had to keep it a secret."

    11. MSDr. Michael Slepian49:03

        Hmm.

    12. MRMel Robbins49:03

        "And so I never let anyone in. These patterns

14. 49:07 – 55:47

    What about traumatic family secrets?

    1. MRMel Robbins49:07

       carry over into relationships and end up looking like secrecy. It's just comfortable to me to not let anyone in." And then this one, "My mom was sexually abused as a child by her late father, and my living grandmother doesn't know, and it bothers me every time she talks about what a wonderful guy he was."

    2. MSDr. Michael Slepian49:34

       Family secrets are also in the top 10, um, so they're a really common secret. You know, it- it- it brings up some of the issues we were talking about, where it's like, here's this thing that's incredibly difficult to talk about it, but I want to, and I wanna feel able to. And how can we get there? And then it's- it's sort of looping back on what we were talking about before when it comes to children, you know, I think you wanna think very carefully as a parent what it means to be asking your child to keep a secret with you or on your behalf, because it- it should set off some alarm bells.

    3. MRMel Robbins50:18

       I actually think it's emotional abuse. I think it is completely inappropriate for adults to be burdening children with details about their marriage or with secrets that you're supposed to keep, because it makes you as a child start to associate love with loyalty and obedience. And I think it's, I- I- I get so angry, Michael, when I see parents disclosing s- issues about their marriage to their children, where they try to triangulate and get kids to go against an ex-spouse or a current spouse, and bar... I just, I... This- this is... You can tell it's a... It pisses me off. And so I think it's... You know, for me personally, I- I feel like this is more than be careful, don't fucking do it. 'Cause I... Let's focus on Kristen. "Growing up, I've become so overly independent, I never know when to ask for help. I feel that because of my parents' lifestyle, we had to keep it secret, and so now I never let anyone in. And these patterns carry over into relationships." How does having family secrets as a child impact someone as an adult? What did you see in your 10 years of research, Michael?

    4. MSDr. Michael Slepian51:37

       So I think, you know, in a situation where there's a lot of family secrets, you start getting the idea as a child, like, secrets are how you solve problems. Um. Make sure this person doesn't know about this, and- and we can all move forward. And of course, what we've been talking about is secrecy creates problems. Um, it- it can solve some problems while creating others. And- and people who have a habit of keeping secrets as a way of dealing with distress, as a way of dealing with difficult issues, um, these are people who develop a habit of not coming to others for needed help. And this is where we see a lot of problems. Um, you don't want children to be walking away from your family life into other domains and think, like, the way to solve difficult conversations is to just never have them, the way to solve problems is to never bring them to people around you. That's- that's gonna make things worse.

    5. MRMel Robbins52:38

       Wow. You know, when you think about how prevalent sexual abuse is, that one in four women, one in f- one in six men, at least based on the research, have experienced it. We know how it can become generational and be a big secret inside of families. And so I think about this listener that wrote in talking, about the fact that her grandmother has no idea that her late husband molested their daughter, and now here the granddaughter is knowing this and hearing the grandmother talk. Like, how does somebody start to deal with a secret of that magnitude? Because I would imagine that you're like, "Well, should I tell my grandmother? Should I not tell my grandmother?"

    6. MSDr. Michael Slepian53:26

       Right. And so I think this is the right question. Should I tell my grandmother? Um, because I- I think, you know, why do you... Why do you want to tell a person, this person your secret? Is it just because you just can't be alone with it anymore, or are you just... Or is it that you really feel that- that they should know it, um, and that that's the right thing to do? And, you know, it's sometimes not clear, and I think that's a moment when you realize you should be talking to a third party about this and- and sort of get some other perspectives. Because once you tell it, there's- there's no going back, um, and so you wanna be really clear to yourself why you are considering telling someone this thing that there's no undo button for. Um, do they need to know this thing? Would they want to know this thing? And that's where conversations with other people come in.

    7. MRMel Robbins54:28

       And-

    8. MSDr. Michael Slepian54:29

       If the reason you want to reveal it is just 'cause you- you feel like you really wanna talk about it, that's like, well, maybe you should first talk about it with someone else and- and see where that takes you, and maybe get that other person's perspective on whether you should tell, you know, your grandmother in this scenario. Um, it turns out that the secrets we think most about are the secrets that harm us most.

    9. MRMel Robbins54:53

       One of the things that I'm a little worried about with this episode is that everybody listening, according to your research, has three secrets, (laughs) you know, or 13 secrets, one of which is very active. We've probably stirred it up inside of them. Now they're, like, pissed off at me and feeling uncomfortable and like, "Michael," you know, "don't tell me that... Ah, I'm feeling ashamed. You're right. I should do something." Let's talk about something that you call the coping compass. So you have a secret, and you're feeling that it is a huge burden, and it's time to relieve yourself of that burden. You're a good person. You need to talk to somebody. Is finding somebody to confide in the first thing you should do?

    10. MSDr. Michael Slepian55:46

        Almost always,

15. 55:47 – 1:01:56

    Choose the person who is your "coping compass" wisely.

    1. MSDr. Michael Slepian55:47

       es- especially for- if finding the right person, yes. If you can find the right person to talk to, you're in, you're in a really good place, um, and there's a lot of people who are the right people to talk to, uh, because, yes, you know, a situation like this, talking to someone is going to be really helpful. And so, you know, the, the idea of the coping compass is essentially you're trying to point yourself to the resource that's most available to you.

    2. MRMel Robbins56:14

       Okay.

    3. MSDr. Michael Slepian56:14

       Now, you know, in this context, I would say that, you know, actually, you have someone you can talk to. Maybe a really natural person to talk to is the person who told you this secret, and you say, "Hey, I'm having a lot of trouble with this. Um, I'd like to talk about it with you." This person is uniquely available to you to talk about this, um, given the nature of this example, and, you know, it's easy to forget that, um, that you have this person who knows the whole, who, who just knows the whole story and you can talk about it with them, and just understand, like, where are they headed with this because you're finding it hard. Um, and there's a lesson we need to come back to, which is choose your person carefully when it comes time to choose a person to talk about your secret with 'cause you, what you want to avoid as much as you can is putting a burden on someone else. Um, and so if you've, say, cheated on your partner and you're just trying to figure out what to do with this, you know, talking to their best friend, it's not your best option. It's maybe one of your worst options, um, because now you're putting this person in a really difficult position. Um, and so you want to be careful about who you choose to talk to because y- you don't want to be just taking the burden off you and placing it on them. Um, you know, someone outside of the situation is, is someone to talk to. And you could also talk to a third party about it as well, um, and just say, "Hey, I'm finding... What, what would you do in this situation? Um, how can I work through it?"

    4. MRMel Robbins57:45

       Here's how I think about it. I love the word coping compass because even just in your and my conversation, I think that anybody listening to the two of us, you probably have discerned that I would put Michael in the compassionate and caring camp and I would put me in the assertive camp. And so if your compass is telling you, "I got to talk to somebody, and I just need somebody who's going to listen and be compassionate," you would likely go to Michael. If this is eating you alive and you're like, "I got to talk to somebody, and I need, I need a solution here. I got- I got- I got to, I got to absorb some courage," you would go to the assertive person who's going to go, "Are you out of your fucking mind? You either need to end this or tell your partner. You clearly need to go to therapy, but this is killing you. And you told me 'cause you knew I would say that to you, but you got two weeks to figure this out, or else I'm telling your spouse 'cause I'm not..." Like, so I think that that advice, Michael, choose the person-

    5. MSDr. Michael Slepian58:59

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    6. MRMel Robbins59:00

       ... that is your coping compass wisely-

    7. MSDr. Michael Slepian59:06

       Yeah.

    8. MRMel Robbins59:06

       ... because it matters. And the second thing that you said that I think is really important is to, is when you're choosing to remember, you may be doing a bad thing or you may be embarrassed by this thing that you need to work through, but you're not a bad person. The simple fact that you want to tell somebody indicates that you want to relieve yourself of this, that you know that you don't deserve to live under the weight of this secret. And so I love the fact that in every situation, finding somebody to talk to, whether it is a compassionate or it's an assertive friend or it's a therapist, that's the number one thing because what that does, Michael, is it seems like it would honor the fact that you deserve to feel better in your life and that you're ready to relieve yourself of the pain that holding a secret has caused you.

    9. MSDr. Michael Slepian1:00:05

       Yeah. That's exactly right. There's essentially two broad forms of social support, and one is what we call emotional support. Um, do you just want someone to hear you out? Do you want just someone to say like, "That sucks. I'm here for you"? Or do you need to do something? Um, do you actually have to, do you have to take some action? And that's when you're looking for the assertive person, this, the person you know is going to push you to do the thing that you need to do. And so that's, that's what we're thinking about when we're like, you know, "What do I need here, um, to be in a better place?" And other people are these sort of bounties of support and, you know, you choose your person carefully. There's a study that I really like. It's that it's not about secrecy. It's about, you know, the, the people read these stories about other people, and in these stories, you know, one version of the story is someone's, you know.... done bad things, um, in their past and now they're doing good things. Or, and then in the other version of the story, it's like people have done good things now and, or in the past and now they're doing bad things today. And essentially, what the study showed was most people, at the end of the day, believe that most people deep down are good and sort of their arc bends toward goodness.

    10. MRMel Robbins1:01:20

        I believe that with my whole heart. I really do. I love your point, Michael, that when you keep a secret, it keeps you apart, but when you share a secret, it actually brings you closer to the people that you love. And I found these two questions in a New York Times essay by Mandy Catron that are questions you can ask anyone in order to create a more intimate question, in order to create a more intimate relationship, and I think these two questions are great tools in any relationship to open up the door to have deeper

16. 1:01:56 – 1:08:12

    Questions you can ask anyone to develop a closer relationship

    1. MRMel Robbins1:01:56

       conversations and even allow people the opportunity to potentially confess a secret. And so I'm gonna ask them to you right now, Michael. And the first one is, what is your biggest regret? Do you wanna go first?

    2. MSDr. Michael Slepian1:02:11

       Are, are, am I answering what my biggest regret is?

    3. MRMel Robbins1:02:12

       Yeah.

    4. MSDr. Michael Slepian1:02:14

       (laughs) .

    5. MRMel Robbins1:02:14

       (laughs) .

    6. MSDr. Michael Slepian1:02:14

       Um. This said, this is gonna make us closer. Uh, no. I mean, y- yes. Uh, I mean, let's, let's try this out. Um, biggest regret. One of my, you know, one of the regrets that comes to mind right now because of the secret we were talking about earlier, the secret of learning about being donor conceived, me and my younger brother. You know, one thing I didn't realize until way later is that, you know, that secret got out. I found it shocking and, and hard to grapple with. My brother found it even more difficult. Um, and, you know, essentially, there was the day that both of us knew and I, like, had a phone call with my mom the next day and I, you know, I had that phone call with my dad and then my brother came out to visit me in California, and we talked about it a little bit, and then we stopped. Um, like, like two weeks later, it was kind of like it never happened and nobody was talking about it anymore, and it made me realize that even once a secret is out, we sometimes still don't talk about it enough even though now we have the opportunities to do so. And where my regret really comes in is I didn't realize until years later when I started talking about this again when I started interviewing my parents for the book, did I learn that my grandmother, my dad's father played a huge role in, in this secret. And this is something I could have learned if I t- asked questions about the secret at the time I first learned it, but I, I just didn't. I don't know why I didn't think to until, you know, years and years later, and I wish I did because I could have found out sooner why this secret was held in the first place. And it turned out a lot of it came down to my dad's mother, my grandmother. She really didn't want me and my younger brother to know because she just felt s- so close to me and my younger brother and we felt so close to, to my dad's parents and, and, and especially our grandmother, and it was just such this special relationship and she didn't wanna... She didn't wanna hurt it. She was concerned that we would feel less part of the family if we knew we weren't biologically related to our dad and his parents. And it just, I really wish we could have talked about that because it's exactly the opposite. Learning that I wasn't biologically related to, you know, my grandparents that I wa- I was so close with didn't make those relationships less special or less meaningful. It, it made them more meaningful and, and more special and I just, I really wish I could have told her that.

    7. MRMel Robbins1:05:12

       That's beautiful. I, I... My biggest regret is definitely, uh, cheating on people that I really cared about. And the second question is, what is the hardest memory that you have?

    8. MSDr. Michael Slepian1:05:25

       Hmm. So this one, there's no cheating out (laughs) .

    9. MRMel Robbins1:05:28

       (laughs) .

    10. MSDr. Michael Slepian1:05:28

        There's no, uh, um, let's think about this. I'll also answer, you know, when it comes to relationships and, and past relationships, I don't know... I don't know what I was doing when I found myself doing this or, or how I started doing this, but I started... I found all my old emails from, um, from an ex, um, eh, someone who I was with for five years and, and the relationship just ended in a really bad way. And, you know, you kind- you kinda remember your side of the story, um, you know, like 10 years later. And I started reading these old emails and I was just like, "Oh, God. I, I was really a terrible partner at the end of this relationship." And, you know, all I remember was the ways in which m- my partner at the time was, was failing me, not the ways in which I was failing her. And, and to just see it so clearly on the screen, it was really confronting-

    11. MRMel Robbins1:06:39

        Mm.

    12. MSDr. Michael Slepian1:06:39

        ... um, to see that I played a huge part in, in that breakup as well and that's just not how I remembered it. And it... And (laughs) some of the... some of the things that I was reading about are, like, some problems that I've carried onto my current relationship-

    13. MRMel Robbins1:06:55

        (laughs) .

    14. MSDr. Michael Slepian1:06:56

        ... and just... And...It's, it's hard to, to see... It, it was kind of hard to see the other perspective on this problem, the one that wasn't mine. And that was kind of hard to confront, even way after the fact, where it, it doesn't... I guess it doesn't matter anymore, but it's like, it kinda feels like it does, and it... Yeah, it's tough to think about things you've done that, in retrospect, are, were wrong.

    15. MRMel Robbins1:07:26

        Hmm. But how beautiful that you now can reflect that there are some similar themes coming up that you can actually actively work on-

    16. MSDr. Michael Slepian1:07:35

        Exactly.

    17. MRMel Robbins1:07:36

        ... to better your life and your relationships. My hardest memory is, um, sophomore summer, after sophomore year of college. Um, had a terrible breakup with this guy that I really, really loved, um, and we had had a really, really, uh, hard spring because his do- father had died of suicide, and I spiraled. And, um, we had big plans for the summer, and I just cratered. And his mom drove up from Indiana

17. 1:08:12 – 1:12:52

    Here’s my hardest memory and what I realize about it now.

    1. MRMel Robbins1:08:12

       to pick him up from our house in Michigan, and I just remember them leaving. I could barely even look at his mother because I just knew how much pain she was in, I was in, he was in. You know, I think a lot... I was just a kid, and yet, if I could do it all over, I would. And it kind of also relates to another huge regret of mine, which is... I just wish that I had known how much childhood trauma had fucked me up earlier and that I'd gotten into therapy earlier and how there were so many things that I didn't even realize that I was doing because I didn't have the tools or the knowledge or the skills that I do now, and you know. So I look back with a lot of compassion for myself, but oh my God, there's always this like... It's not a secret anymore, but boy, there's like a (laughs) weight in your heart. I think it's one of the reasons why, uh, I... It's what drives me now. Like, if I can save anybody the headache and the heartache that I caused myself and other people 'cause they just didn't fucking know, um, how to do better, that's, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna do it. And so, I wanna thank you, Michael, because I know that this conversation today, your research, that it is going to cause a massive ripple of change and empowerment through people's lives around the world. So thank you for taking the time to be here today and to be so open.

    2. MSDr. Michael Slepian1:09:49

       Thank you for having me.

    3. MRMel Robbins1:09:50

       Of course. Wow, I am so blown away by the depth of this conversation that I already anticipate that it has stirred something up inside of you, and I just feel the need to say something. I've never done this before on the podcast, but I want to be that assertive friend. So, if there's something that got stirred up inside of you, and you now are looking for advice and coaching to be able to work through some secret, a burden that you've been carrying alone, I am raising my hand and saying I will be that assertive friend. All you need to do is go to melrobbins.com. Go to the podcast section. You'll find a form there that says, uh, "Submit a topic," and fill it out, and you might just find yourself anonymously on the Mel Robbins Podcast as I coach you through your secret. Okay? Awesome. And in case no one else tells you today, I wanna tell you. Despite what you're carrying deep inside you, you're a good person, and I love you, and I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to create a better life. All right, I'll talk to you in a few days. (beep) I've been discussing this topic with my friends and... Oh, (burps) excuse me. I just had a protein shake. Oh, God. Wow. (laughs) It tastes good, but it repeats. (beep) Woo. (clears throat) Could I have a sip of my water? Jesse, I'm sorry to... (beep) How are ya? All right, I'm gonna get my headphones on so I can hear you. (beep) Wonder if I should take these bracelets off 'cause I'm making some noise. Yes, take them off. Okay, Jesse's like, "Get that jewelry off." There we go. (beep) Okay, all right, just do the limbo and get back in here. Okay. (beep) All right, nevermind. Here we go. (beep) You're a very intellectual dude. (beep) Okay, excellent.

    4. NANarrator1:11:46

       (...) (music)

    5. MRMel Robbins1:11:46

       Oh, and one more thing. I know this is not a blooper. (laughs) This is the legal language. You know, what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode. (music) And for you watching here on YouTube, thank you, thank you, thank you for being here. If you really love this, and how could you not, please check out this one. This is with a woman named Ritu Bhasin, and it's all about your authentic self. You're gonna love it, and it's the perfect thing to watch after watching this episode. Mwah.

Episode duration: 1:12:53