Re:Thinking with Adam GrantEsther Perel on the relationship baggage we bring to work | ReThinking
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35 min read · 6,561 words- 0:00 – 1:01
Relational intelligence at work: why “soft skills” became strategic
- EPEsther Perel
You're an organizational psychologist. I'm a clinician. To me, I found the reason I began to think about that is, A, because I think that relational skills have changed meaning in the workplace. They've always used to be soft skills, kind of disregarded them. They were often seen as feminine skills. And I think that the research, especially with the rise of AI and everything around us, there is a sense that actually relational skills are, are often the bottom line. And actually, we don't call them skills anymore. It's relational intelligence because it's systemic. It's not just knowing how to talk and communicate. It's understanding the relational system inside companies.
- AGAdam Grant
[upbeat music] Esther, welcome. It's been a while since we did a podcast together.
- EPEsther Perel
Yes, yes. But you know what it is? Sometimes we get on the phone and we talk at length, and it feels like we just actually did the podcast, but it was a private conversation. Then we say we should do a podcast about this, but you can't repeat the conversation.
- AGAdam Grant
I think we need to just record our calls.
- EPEsther Perel
We should record our calls. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- 1:01 – 2:36
The “unofficial resume”: your hidden life and relationship history at work
- AGAdam Grant
So I wanna, I wanna talk to you about relationships today. I'm so intrigued by your concept of unofficial resumes, and I thought that would be a fun place to start. So we all know what the official resume is.
- EPEsther Perel
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
What's the unofficial resume?
- EPEsther Perel
So there are two kinds of-- There are two parts to, in my mind, to the unofficial resume. One is the many different things that you have done and experienced in your life that are not specific about your work history, but that have actually shaped who you are. And then the one that I am most interested in at this moment is your relationship history. To what extent does the way that you were socialized, the norms and the roles and the values that you were inculcated, how do they translate from family, community, religious institutions into your work life? And because that is never on the resume. You can see where the person worked, what they did, all the tasks, but you actually have no idea from what you read or what they tell you what it's like to work with them.
- AGAdam Grant
So I love this concept, and it's, it's a bit of a stretch for us in organizational psychology because normally we think about past relationships mostly in terms of prior jobs. So-
- EPEsther Perel
[laughs] That's right
- AGAdam Grant
... we know that people tend to imprint on their first boss, and then they assume that other leaders are gonna be like them. And so if they were lucky to have a really caring leader, then, you know, they carry positive assumptions into their future jobs. If they had an abusive boss, watch out. They tend to assume that, you know, future workplaces are-
- EPEsther Perel
Mm-hmm
- AGAdam Grant
... gonna be hostile.
- EPEsther Perel
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
But you wanna, you wanna take us both broader-
- EPEsther Perel
Further
- AGAdam Grant
... and farther back in people's-
- EPEsther Perel
Yes
- AGAdam Grant
... histories, don't you?
- 2:36 – 6:04
Autonomy vs. loyalty: the upbringing templates we bring into organizations
- EPEsther Perel
Yes, yes. Because you're just em-emphasizing which boss you had. I'm looking at what was the relationship between you and this boss, not just because of who the boss is, but also because of who you are, and then what sauce did you cook together? And that le-leads me-- There's a question I like to ask a lot. You know, it, it's just a, an opening door. It's not like everything resides there. But I often will ask people, "Were you raised primarily for autonomy and self-reliance, or would you say that you were raised more for loyalty and interdependence?" Raised for autonomy and self-reliance often involves-- It, it's not always in the message. It's sometimes in the circumstances of one's life that you were just left to your own devices. But you have a message in your head, "I've got my own legs to stand on. I have to be the one to do it. Nobody can do it as well as me." When you have a problem, start thinking, "What can I do?" Um, and in, baked in that is also, how did you deal with authority? Was, did, did you learn to challenge it? Did you learn to succumb to it? Did you learn to be, uh, obedient, compliant? Did you fight it all the time? Did you trust it? Did you distrust it? Did you think it was an authority that betrayed you? And that can be parents or parental figures. It can be teachers, coaches. It's not just, you know, the, the nuclear family. It, it really goes much further. And if you're raised for loyalty and in, interdependence, your self is embedded in a network of connections. It's not your own two feet. It's my problem is, is, is everybody else's problem too, and my happiness, my decisions are measured by how they affect others, not just what's good for me. These kind of worldviews, they really are more than just, uh, uh, their Weltanschauung, as they used to call it in German, um, really y- travel with you. They travel with you to work. And when you have had a bad relationship with a m- a manager or a boss, it's not just because the boss was acting a certain way. It's also because of how you interpreted and how you responded to what the boss was doing. The same boss can often be liked by some and dis- totally disliked by others. Not-- Because a relationship is not just one person's personality. It's the dance between two personalities.
- AGAdam Grant
We have sort of a template then-
- EPEsther Perel
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... that we walk into our jobs with. So I'll take, uh, let's take my, I guess, my upbringing as an example. I think I was raised primarily for autonomy and self-reliance, but have come to value some degree of, of loyalty and helpfulness over time. And-
- EPEsther Perel
You wrote a whole book about it. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] I, I did.
- EPEsther Perel
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
So what d- what does that mean for how you would expect me to approach my professional interactions?
- EPEsther Perel
It's not a deterministic view. It doesn't say you were-- you, you got this messaging or you were raised this way, therefore you are that way. It's this is the thing that influenced you more. And from that place, some people will say, "This suits me. This is my view, and this is how I live in the world." Other people say, "I have missed that other side for so long." Other people say, "I learned over time that this approach had its limits. It may be a default setting, but I need to expand on it because these two approaches are not exclusive of each other. They are actually themselves interdependent."
- 6:04 – 7:05
The constant relationship tension: balancing “I” and “we” (rigid vs. pliable)
- AGAdam Grant
Yes. Okay, that was the next question then, which is: What do you do when you want both of these things? So I wanna have meaningful connections with others. I also value my own autonomy. And sometimes those, those, those goals are in tension, and other times they're not
- EPEsther Perel
The-- That tension is not sometimes there, it is always there, actually. It is inherent, sometimes higher and lower, but it is essential to relationships, this I and thou, and it is a constant negotiation and a constant balancing. It's not something that you resolve to make go away. It's actually if you enter the world of relationships, this is gonna be one of your primary tasks. For some of us, it's high tension, and it's really complicated. I constantly comply, I'm pleaser, I, I, I succumb, I don't really hold onto my own views. And for others, I'm rigid. So you have com- you have pliable, and then you have rigid. Some people need to become more pliable, and some people actually could use solidification.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay.
- 7:05 – 11:11
One-line scripts: identifying the messages that govern your work relationships
- EPEsther Perel
But you know, I asked a question earlier this morning. I said to my, the, to the people around me, I said, "What would you say are some of the messages that, uh, that you received that you think went with you to work?" So one of the people was saying, "When you start something, you end it." It's just a one-liner, but you know that in that one-liner is an entire way of, of acting and, and responding to one's obligations. And another person said, "Integrity." And then, then I said, you know, what think of-- A central message for me actually was, "Don't just listen to what people say, watch how they act." And I think when you ask it like that, people, most people have an immediate answer. They have a... If you say, "Is there, if there's a cartoon above your head, what would it say on, in the balloon?" You know? They have their line. They know their unofficial resume relationally.
- AGAdam Grant
And that people-
- EPEsther Perel
What would you say, Adam?
- AGAdam Grant
Well, okay, ask me. What's the question?
- EPEsther Perel
Yes. You began by saying, "I was raised with autonomy, and then I came to understand the importance of," of what? Relying on others? Asking for help? Asking for opinions? Letting myself be influenced by others? Um, w- what is the transition?
- AGAdam Grant
Well, for, for me, the core value is, is helping others.
- EPEsther Perel
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
And so it was, [chuckles] I think it was a realization that if, if I thought about autonomy as independence, then I wouldn't be able to show up for the people who mattered to me, and my contributions would be limited.
- EPEsther Perel
On the other end, helping others is a form of never needing them.
- AGAdam Grant
Guilty as charged.
- EPEsther Perel
It actually reinforced the autonomy.
- AGAdam Grant
I hate needing people.
- EPEsther Perel
So [laughs] okay, so that's the thing. But I think one of the things you say you learned is you learned the interdependence a little bit more. You realized that there was something that you needed to soften that has to do not with helping them, but with letting them either help you, cons- advise you, it, w- intermingle with you. Is that accurate?
- AGAdam Grant
Fair. Yes.
- EPEsther Perel
Fair. Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
Yes, that happened.
- EPEsther Perel
Because helping others is actually an expression of autonomy that says, "You need me, but I never need you." [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Wait, what are you trying to accuse me of, Esther?
- EPEsther Perel
It's not... It's a descriptive, [laughs] not an accusation.
- AGAdam Grant
It's, it's definitely an a- It, it's a, it's a valid analysis, I will say, because I have been accused in the past of, of having unbalanced relationships, where, you know, people will say to me, "You're always helping me, and you never let me help you back."
- EPEsther Perel
Right. Right.
- AGAdam Grant
And my excuse for a long time was, you know, I didn't, I didn't become a professor to get help from students, right? This is a relationship where there's a mentor and a mentee, and I've really had to rethink that over time because I learn so much from my students.
- EPEsther Perel
Right.
- AGAdam Grant
And they want to feel that they have value to add, and by making that one-sided, I was actually limiting the relationship.
- EPEsther Perel
Couldn't agree more. Couldn't agree more. And so now the next question is, do you see the value of adding this perspective into the workplace, right? I mean, you're an organizational psychologist. I'm a clinician. To me, I found the reason I began to think about that is, A, because I think that relational skills have changed meaning in the workplace. They've always used to be soft skills. You kind of disregarded them. They were often seen as feminine skills. And, um, I think that there is such, especially with the rise of AI and everything around us, there is a sense that actually relational skills are, are often the bottom line. And actually, we don't call them skills anymore. It's relational intelligence because it's systemic. It's not just knowing how to talk and communicate and all that. It's understanding the relational system inside companies. That's how I began to think about it. I thought, you know, it, it is, there's something to bring to companies by bringing this relational way of thinking. So do you think that is valid, too?
- AGAdam Grant
Whose show do you think this is? I'm asking the questions here.
- EPEsther Perel
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
I was gonna ask you that question. No, it, it's, it's actually really interesting. As I was listening to even your description of a relationship resume, it never occurred to me to talk about kind of my, you know, my childhood as part of what it's like to work with me, and yet it's such useful information.
- 11:11 – 15:03
What your style selects for: micromanagement, accountability, and matching people well
- EPEsther Perel
Do you micromanage?
- AGAdam Grant
Um, no, because I don't like holding other people accountable. I-
- EPEsther Perel
Oh. So you have a real system in place
- AGAdam Grant
... I want them to be responsible.
- EPEsther Perel
Yes. Yes. Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
You want them to be as autonomous as you.
- AGAdam Grant
Correct.
- EPEsther Perel
You want them to be as self-reliant as you. And so you have a-
- AGAdam Grant
The ideal collaboration is one where we're both totally independent.
- EPEsther Perel
[laughs] Do you hear the contradiction in terms?
- AGAdam Grant
Yes. Of course I do.
- EPEsther Perel
Okay. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
That's the, that's the joy of it, isn't it? But you're right. I do-- I, I've worked really well, when I think about the students that I've mentored, for example, um, I, I've been most successful when they're very independent and proactive, and I have struggled and consistently failed-
- EPEsther Perel
Right
- AGAdam Grant
... when they're, they have a sort of a more-
- EPEsther Perel
Deferential. You lead me-
- AGAdam Grant
Deferential, yes
- EPEsther Perel
... tell me what to do.
- AGAdam Grant
Yes.
- EPEsther Perel
Um, give me the guidelines, et cetera. Now, that i- tells you which students you sh- you may wanna work with and which ones should go to somebody else.
- AGAdam Grant
Correct.
- EPEsther Perel
And who you should hire to work with and who should be working with someone else. I think this is extremely useful information because too many bad matches are being made. It's about this. This is a very important dimension. A good collaboration is two independent people is really v- it says a lot. Um, help, of course, is in micromanaging, is in, um, how you, how you communicate what you want to be done. You know, the, the amount of people who, who tell their bosses, "You don't tell me clearly what you expect. You expect me to know what you want without having to spell it out because it's so obvious to you." I mean, you can see the scripts, and each one of these scripts refers back to a particular relational dimension, which refers back to a particular- Type of socialization
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. I, I see this is gonna be therapy, which I clearly needed.
- EPEsther Perel
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
I, I've ha- I've had a hard time saying no to those students because it conflicts with my identity and value system around being helpful. And I don't wanna turn them away, and I end up then being unhelpful to them. And I should've ... Yeah, I realize after the fact, yeah, I should've encouraged them to go to somebody else who's, who's a better match for what they're looking for.
- EPEsther Perel
It's interesting 'cause I'm thinking about me as a therapist, you know? Uh, there are many times when I just say, "I don't think I'm the right person." And at first, people don't like it. It's not a nice thing to say. Like, "Is there something w- with me?" No, it's because there is something in the way that I think would work better with you. For me, it often has to do with pace, pacing. Not everybody can go at this, at, at the speed that I am accustomed to go. And, um, for some people it's just so welcome because, you know, I don't spend 20 minutes listening, not saying a thing.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
And for other people, this is not what suits them. They need to ... So that's one distinction. Another distinction is that people tend to choose the, the, the manager, the mentor, the therapist, you know, who, who often strengthens their defense system or their default system-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- 15:03 – 20:19
Complementarity over cloning: culture add, culture multiply, and the trap of polarization
- AGAdam Grant
... I do. I do. So I'm, you know, I'm thinking about this idea of complementarity, and, uh, of course, I'm immediately thinking about some relevant studies. There's, there's a great paper, um, that Chad Hartnell led showing that if you have a task-oriented culture and you hire a relationship-oriented CEO, that leader will add more to the bottom line than if you brought in a task-oriented CEO who basically just cloned what was already in the culture.
- EPEsther Perel
Correct.
- AGAdam Grant
And the reverse is true, too, that if you have a relationship-oriented culture that's more kumbaya, the task-oriented CEO adds more value.
- EPEsther Perel
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
But, but we-
- EPEsther Perel
Obviously
- AGAdam Grant
... that's not the person we choose, to your point.
- EPEsther Perel
No.
- AGAdam Grant
Right? [laughs]
- EPEsther Perel
No, it's just-
- AGAdam Grant
If, if we're a task-oriented culture, we want the results-driven, hard-charging leader.
- EPEsther Perel
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
How do you think about getting people to, to abandon that preference, knowing that the, the complement may be more valuable but is harder to ... It's harder, harder to get excited about that person. Sometimes, uh, it's like a failed organ transplant when they come in because they seem like such a mismatch.
- EPEsther Perel
My first s- framework-
- AGAdam Grant
Oh
- EPEsther Perel
... which I'm sure you are familiar with, but it's, it's an old one, and I find it so relevant still, is high context, low context. Do you know it?
- AGAdam Grant
Yep.
- EPEsther Perel
Edward T. Hall?
- AGAdam Grant
But not as well as you.
- EPEsther Perel
High context, I'm gonna just define the term for, is communication that derives its meanings from the implicit, from shared understandings, shared history, non-verbal cues, body language. It is extremely contextual. That is the relational versus the task. Ta- Low context society are often task-oriented societies. It's actually not just high context, low context. It's relational versus task. They're more literal. They're, they rely on the words. They go for clarity and efficacy rather than for relationships. So the model of high context, low context applies directly to relational versus task. The question of complementarity is this: What is the, what are the pieces that are needed to do this? It needs a combo of relational and task. What is our strength? Task. What do we need to bolster? What is the side of us that we have actually not developed, that we often negate or neglect or diminish? Choose the other one, because the system needs the other one. Even if you don't need it personally and you don't like it, your company does. Usually, your relationship does. Usually, your culture does. You know? It, it, it, by definition, most of these complex situations straddle dualities, and they need to integrate them. Complementarity is the ability to integrate the two parts. The opposite of complementarity is polarization.
- AGAdam Grant
That's so interesting. Yes.
- EPEsther Perel
Because the ... What is difficult for us is to actually bring those two things together. What do we do typically in a relationship? I become the relational person, you the task person. In a company, you have them split. In a country, you have them split. In the gender wars, you have them split, and politically you have them split. And instead of understanding that each actually needs the other, what do we do? I outsource onto you the part of the equation that I don't wanna have to deal with. You take care of that, and I don't have to integrate anything. If I was alone, I would have to integrate those two poles, those dualities all the time. But since we are m- often not alone, we split. It's called splitting the ambivalence, because complementarity deals with ambivalence, with d- op- opposing forces, opposing needs, opposing sources. When youManage to split it completely and you don't have to deal with, you know, m- micro man- micro picture, macro picture. You know, spending, saving, uh, hiring, not hiring, whatever the, the, the tensions that people have. AI, not AI. Remote, not remote. It's this or that, and once you have to do this and that, and how we gonna do it, you're in complementarity zone. If it becomes an either/or, and you become the or that I don't wanna have to deal with, then we are in a polarized s- situation.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, that makes so much sense. Okay, so the, this, this is lighting a bunch of different sparks.
- EPEsther Perel
Oh, I wanna hear your, your, your response to... Because, uh, I'm, I'm think- I'm in the thick of this thing, and I love complementarity, and couples therapy is filled with it, and the opposite of it is polarization.
- AGAdam Grant
I never thought about that as the opposite, but I think you're right. I think... So first of all, this is, I mean, this is why the idea of, of culture add has been, has become popular instead of just culture fit, right? Because we're, we're looking for somebody who's going to help us-
- EPEsther Perel
Culture add, yes
- AGAdam Grant
... develop what's, what's weak or what's missing-
- EPEsther Perel
Yes
- AGAdam Grant
... as opposed to just replicate what's already there. Um, I think though after listening to you talk about complementarity, add is not enough because it suggests that we can, [chuckles] like we're, we're the task-oriented culture. We bring in the relationship-oriented person, and they're basically in their own silo managing relationships.
- EPEsther Perel
Correct.
- 20:19 – 23:33
Mergers and acquisitions as relationship work: integrate or keep autonomy?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. In both directions. You know, this is, this is why a lot of mergers and acquisitions fail is you, you know, you see, uh, either two companies come together or one decides to buy another.
- EPEsther Perel
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
And the assumption is, wow, you know, this culture is gonna bring something we're missing, but they don't do the integration work, and they don't have the hard conversations about are we actually gonna start over and build a new culture together? Are we gonna try to take elements of each that are successful? Are we gonna have one absorb the other and expect, you know, the, usually the, the firm that's coming in that has less power to, to basically adapt, um, and conform? And I think in some cases, the, the misfit or the, [chuckles] the tension is so profound that, that leaders realize it's actually better to just do the acquisition and let the, the new organization, um-
- EPEsther Perel
Yep
- AGAdam Grant
... or let the two organizations maintain their, their independence. So I think about, as an example, I think about Amazon buying Zappos and saying, "You know what? We realize the Zappos culture is different from the Amazon culture in a lot of ways. We don't wanna mess with it. We're just gonna let it run autonomously." Or more recently, Microsoft did that with LinkedIn. And I wonder, I guess this makes me curious about how you think about when it's a good idea to do the integration work and when it's a good idea to maintain the separation.
- EPEsther Perel
The first thing, uh, just to f- to, to complete the circle, in, in the version where you actually create an integration is the integration can only take place if each culture or each side or each person or each company says, "I need that." That saying, "I need that," is the invitation to interdependence versus separateness. And, uh, um, and so that's the first thing. However, I would probably say I'm more aware of when, when, when it's necessary than when people want it. It's necessary when you see people who absolutely do not want to be influenced. It, it's the rigidity that tells you it's needed.
- AGAdam Grant
So they're the ones who need it most. They're also the most resistant to it.
- EPEsther Perel
They-- Exactly. Exactly. That it, as always, when, when you, when you're forced, you know you need it, but you're not as open to it and as creative to doing it. When it's voluntary, there is less pressure, you're more creative, but there's less int- less, less motivation. There's less incentive to do it. So then the question becomes, does it have to come from the bottom up, or does it have to come from top down? I think, uh, my sense is it needs to come from the top down with a very clear explanation for why this is so important.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. Well, empirically, you're right. I think, you know, the, the evidence is strong that it's important for leaders to deliver this message top down.
- EPEsther Perel
They don't, right?
- AGAdam Grant
And explain. They, they don't do it enough, right? And explain, "Here is why our culture is incomplete. Here's how we actually want to evolve. Here's what we wanna learn from the organization we're mer- merging with. Here's how our values and our practices and our norms are gonna shift, and we, we see a lot of potential there." I also think, though, that, like, this is a time to talk about the collective relationship resume and for, for people, you know, across different teams to say, "Here's how we've done things historically."
- EPEsther Perel
Correct. Very nice.
- AGAdam Grant
"Here's what's not working for us. Here's what we're hoping to get better at."
- 23:33 – 25:33
Leading change without backlash: the polarity-quadrant approach and inquiry over advocacy
- EPEsther Perel
So I think that one of the ways that I found always useful to do this is actually to use the, the, the, the polarity model of Johnson. You know it? The, the quadrant?
- AGAdam Grant
No.
- EPEsther Perel
You know, you start... Uh, it, it's really helpful. So imagine you have, you know, one model, another model. Centralized, decentralized, something like that. And you, you're not gonna convince by just saying, "You central people, you have to decentralize," or the, or reverse. What you do is you first start by talking quadrant one about all the good things that belong to the model that has been used. Then you talk about all the liabilities and the weaknesses in the models that, in the model that you are proposing. Then you go to the liabilities and the weaknesses of the model that they have used, and only then do you go to what you think would actually be a more complementary model. Because if I try to convince you that you need to change, the, the, the main thing I do is reinforce your desire not to. It will only shift once I have acknowledged all the good you've done, all the b- weakness of mine, then the weakness of yours, and then maybe what I propose.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, th- this is why when we teach group decision-making, uh, I love to cover the evidence around discussing the pros and cons of each option. ... before we even share our preferences around which option we think is better because once preferences are known, people start to jump on the bandwagon of what's popular, you get groupthink. And also we run into the issue of it's, you know, it's if, if we're allowed to talk about which model we like, then we're gonna have too much advocacy and not enough inquiry. If we're forced to go through the exercise of-
- EPEsther Perel
That's, I wanna repeat that because it's-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. Good
- EPEsther Perel
... really important. Too much advocacy and not enough inquiry, or too much reactivity and not enough reflectivity. It's the same.
- AGAdam Grant
Yes.
- EPEsther Perel
And I, uh, I just wanna highlight that because so much of where we come in is companies who are exactly on the fault line of reactive or advocates.
- 25:33 – 28:59
Rules vs. risk: safety needs, innovation needs, and “portfolio” thinking
- AGAdam Grant
Now, the, this goes to something else that I was thinking about. If we, if we go back to the beginning of this conversation, uh, we were talking about autonomy versus interdependence.
- EPEsther Perel
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
And, uh, you know, then we mapped that onto one of the core dimensions of organizational culture, which is task versus relationship focus.
- EPEsther Perel
Yep.
- AGAdam Grant
You also mentioned what was your relationship with authority? Were you obedient? Were you more defiant? And lo and behold, it turns out that is the other major dimension of organizational culture, which is risk versus rules, and this is what we're starting to talk about now is too, I think too many organizations, um, and too many teams, um, it's the rigidity you were describing. Um, they've got a set of rules that they're very comfortable with. Um, following them has led to success in the past. It also creates a sense of predictability and comfort and-
- EPEsther Perel
And safety. The, the-
- AGAdam Grant
Exactly
- EPEsther Perel
... there's rules for safety.
- AGAdam Grant
Yes. And I find myself really struggling in a lot of cases to nudge toward risk-taking, to say, "Look, like you've gotta manage risk like a stock portfolio." You can't have all of your decisions be secure because then you will have an unbalanced porfo- portfolio.
- EPEsther Perel
Yep.
- AGAdam Grant
You need a mix of, you know, very predictable safe bets and also some more unpredictable higher risk, potentially higher return choices. How do you think about getting people to take a little bit more risk?
- EPEsther Perel
We all have these two fundamental sets of human needs, security and adventure, change and stability, continuity and innovation. I mean, it, it's all these dualities and, um, they spring from different sources and they pull us in different directions. But I think you're the one who said this to me once when we did a whole thing about trust, and you said, "The research on trust is inconclusive and it basically operates with a complete definitional vagueness." We don't really know what is trust. Is it a condition? Is it a feeling? Is it an outcome? [chuckles] What exactly is it? And we don't also know if you need to trust in order to take risks, that was Rachel Botsman who added that to our conversation, or if it actually is the act of taking risks that strengthens the trust. I have found this extremely important and useful, and I don't have an answer, but how do I, I... The first thing is really to explain to people the necessity of both. If you just do rules, if you just do structure and security and safety and reliability and dependability and predictability and all of that, you will fossilize and die. If you just do change and innovation and dysregulation and ch- and, and risk-taking, et cetera, you may go chaotic. You will dysregulate and go chaotic. Both systems become ineffective and unhealthy, if we wanna use that word. So again, they need each other. On any team, you need both. You need a bunch of people who say, "We can't do this," and you need a bunch of people who say, "Let's go." This is another complementarity. It's essential that they sit at the same table and that they hear each other and that they understand that I focus on this, but I need you because the issue at hand needs this. Most issues are a n- negotiation between risk-taking and risk assessment.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, as usual, you make me think about some data.
- EPEsther Perel
Mm-hmm.
- 28:59 – 31:52
Paradox as a capability: holding tensions to unlock creativity
- AGAdam Grant
So Ella Muran Spector and Miriam Erez have shown that you get more innovation in teams if you have a mix of creative and conformist members.
- EPEsther Perel
Correct. Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
Which is, uh-
- EPEsther Perel
That's exactly right
- AGAdam Grant
... which is exactly the dialectic that you're describing. They also find that encouraging people to accept paradoxes as opposed to resist them, uh, f- boosts creativity. And so I think what, what often gets in the way of, of creative thinking and problem-solving is people saying, "Well, you know, we've, we've gotta resolve our differences," right? I, I am, I am somebody who loves to take risks. You are somebody who's very, uh, comfortable with familiar rules, and so we've gotta pick one or the other and find a norm to follow.
- EPEsther Perel
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
The reality is that creativity flourishes when we hold those two values in tension, and we have to be open to accepting that. How, paradox expert?
- EPEsther Perel
The same as what we talked before. You know, it's most relationship issues, most organizational issues, most systemic issues are complex problems that you learn to manage, paradoxes that you hold and not problems that you solve. It's the holding of it that is actually what's going to yield the creativity, the innovation, the, the, all of that. It's the either/or that is actually not the useful path. But it's very difficult to explain that to people. Are there situations where you wish that, um... Oh, there's one other... I, I will give you two. Are there situation where you wish you had been more open to discovery, to curiosity? Sometimes I say, "You are a very curious person. You like to go into the... What makes this one more challenging for you? You know-
- AGAdam Grant
Hmm
- EPEsther Perel
... something about this one makes you react with more stiffness, and y- yet, what, what, yet usually you are quite open to alternatives." And often, by the way, this goes right back to the relationship history. This-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- EPEsther Perel
... is where people's, the, the layers underneath begin to, to reveal themselves, and it's not just a work issue. It just plays out in the work issue. Sometimes I say, "Knowing yourself as well as you think you do, what makes it hard to work with you?" Because w- in those situations where when people can't integrate that risk and insecurity, they polarize. They instantly polarize, you know, and they dump on the other side, you know, "If it doesn't work, it's because of you. It's not because we did not succeed in really becoming interdependent parts who make the system thrive. It's because you did something, and if we had done it my way..." And all of these are often scripts more about fear than about problem resolution.
- AGAdam Grant
Very compelling. It- you sh- you should consider being a therapist.
- EPEsther Perel
[laughs] And working with men.
- 31:52 – 34:39
Minority voices, inclusion, and remote work: eliciting the perspectives you’re missing
- AGAdam Grant
I think you'd be good at it. [laughs] One thing we know is that the people who are most hesitant to take those kinds of risks, uh, are people who are minorities in an organization, uh, because they, they worry that if they share, especially their cultural backgrounds, that they're gonna stand out instead of fitting in. And you, despite that, you will be happy to know that there's some research by Rachel R. Ned which shows that if you, as a member of a minority group that's underrepresented in an organization, if you talk about your cultural background and your upbringing, you actually end up being included more by the majority.
- EPEsther Perel
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
Um, in part, that may be individuating. In part, um, it allows them to see you as a human being, um, as, as opposed to just a, a stereotype of a group. They learn more about you. They, they f- they can find commonalities with you. And I, I found that really encouraging to say, you know, the, the very people who are most hesitant to open up are often the people who benefit the most from doing it.
- EPEsther Perel
But it's not just that they benefit. The whole organization benefits. We, we wanna give lip service to, to, to diversity and, but in fact, it's, it's really about integrating particularism with universalism. I mean, it's, it's having colors and shades and experiences and different hierarchies and different priorities of values, and I really think this has taken a toll because of remote work because the, it, there's a, a drainage of possibilities of situations, opportunities to say, "Do you wanna know how we do it in my country, where I'm from? You know, the way I learned it?" Then the question is, how do you elicit that? It takes people to say, you know, "I'd love to hear from you. You know, you, you may have a different perspective. Are there other p- points of views in the room? It would be really rich to know what are the other ways to think." The, it's not like the human experience is infinite. [laughs] Whatever you are going through, a bunch of other people have gone through it in their own version, so please do speak. And I think that every leader, every manager, every team leader should elicit that. Ron Heifetz talks very eloquently about how much you want to elicit the minority views whenever you have an adaptive challenge. It's not so important when you have a technical problem, but adaptive challenges demand that people tolerate anxiety. And to bring in other points of views, other cultures, other narratives can be anxiety-producing to those who like to live in certainty, but it's necessary.
- 34:39 – 36:40
Lightning round: bad advice, best advice, voice over text, and ambivalence about AI
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, last thing. Lightning round.
- EPEsther Perel
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
Are you ready?
- EPEsther Perel
Yeah. Oh, I'm s- [laughs] yes. Go ahead.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay. What is the worst relationship-building advice that you hear?
- EPEsther Perel
Do what's right for you, and don't think about how, what other people think.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, best advice.
- EPEsther Perel
The quality of your relationships will determine the quality of your life. Don't neglect them, and don't think there is tomorrow. If you have something to say to someone, say it, say it now.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, uh, quick hot take, an unpopular opinion you're eager to defend.
- EPEsther Perel
Don't text. Leave a message, call, because the voice is the first thing we hear in utero. It is the most intimate. It b- you can't mistaken a voice and a tone and all the implicit meanings that are attached to it versus writing texts that are rife with misunderstandings and misinterpretations. Speak to people.
- AGAdam Grant
I think this is why asynchronous voice memos are becoming popular.
- EPEsther Perel
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
What is something you've changed your mind about lately?
- EPEsther Perel
I, I change my mind back and forth about AI almost weekly, you know, depending on if I f- see something that I find really helpful and inspiring and useful, and times when I think it's just gonna ma- it's gonna make the species disappear if this goes on. [laughs] So, um, I vacillate. I don't know that I change my mind and it's definitive, but I vacillate constantly about my thinking in AI.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, and then what's a question you have for me?
- EPEsther Perel
Can we do this again?
- AGAdam Grant
Yes. We must.
- EPEsther Perel
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
I insist.
- EPEsther Perel
Great. Great.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay.
- EPEsther Perel
Thank you so much.
- AGAdam Grant
Thank you, Esther.
- EPEsther Perel
Voilà.
- AGAdam Grant
What a blast, as always.
- EPEsther Perel
Thank you so much. It's a pleasure, really. [outro music]
Episode duration: 36:41
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