Re:Thinking with Adam GrantJacinda Ardern on empathetic leadership | ReThinking with Adam Grant
CHAPTERS
- 0:00 – 1:06
Jacinda Ardern’s “different kind of power”: empathy, kindness, and doubt in leadership
Adam Grant introduces Jacinda Ardern and frames the conversation around empathetic leadership, kindness as strength, impostor syndrome, and lessons from COVID-era decision-making. Jacinda sets a tone of openness and practicality about what leadership costs and why it matters.
- •Ardern’s leadership viewed through the lens of empathy and kindness
- •The episode’s core themes: impostor syndrome, responsibility, COVID leadership
- •Reframing ‘kindness’ as a leadership asset rather than a weakness
- 1:06 – 2:18
“Criers, huggers, worriers”: why sensitive people self-exclude from leadership
Jacinda explains the dedication of her book to ‘criers, huggers, and worriers’—people who often whisper these traits as if they disqualify them from leadership. She argues the opposite: these qualities can be compatible with effective leadership and deserve visibility.
- •Emotional openness as a hidden ‘secret society’ in professional life
- •Cultural assumptions that sensitivity conflicts with leadership
- •Encouraging capable people not to rule themselves out
- 2:18 – 4:18
Impostor syndrome as a spectrum—and when doubt becomes useful
Adam and Jacinda distinguish between debilitating impostor feelings and motivating self-doubt that prompts preparation. Jacinda describes a ‘confidence gap’ that can either limit opportunity-taking or drive leaders to seek expertise and prepare thoroughly.
- •Impostor thoughts are common even among high achievers
- •Difference between paralyzing fraud feelings vs productive uncertainty
- •Confidence gaps can prompt better preparation and better listening
- •The risk point: doubt becoming overwhelming and immobilizing
- 4:18 – 9:32
An accidental rise: becoming prime minister at 37 through responsibility, not ambition
Jacinda recounts how she became leader in a high-pressure political moment when her party’s polling was poor and the incumbent leader resigned. Rather than chasing power, she experienced leadership as a responsibility that can override self-doubt when the moment demands it.
- •Deputy leader role as support, not ‘next in line’ ambition
- •Leadership decision flips from opportunity to obligation
- •Responsibility can be a healthy counterweight to self-doubt
- •Politics often assumes ambition as the default motivation
- 9:32 – 12:38
The burdens of empathy: ‘usefulness,’ duty, and the toll of caring leadership
The conversation turns to the pitfalls of being driven by empathy and an intense desire to be useful, tracing it back to childhood. Jacinda reflects on the emotional toll of proximity to grief—but also the privilege of being in a position to act.
- •Early ‘be useful’ instinct and its lifelong through-line
- •Costs of duty-driven leadership and emotional exposure
- •Distinguishing compassion from ‘empathic distress’
- •Privilege of being able to do something in moments of national grief
- 12:38 – 13:52
Channeling grief into action: Christchurch and rapid gun reform
Jacinda describes the March 15 terrorist attack as a moment of collective grief that demanded a political response. She explains how urgency and public sentiment enabled swift passage of gun legislation as a way to translate grief into prevention.
- •Public desire for leadership to respond to grief with action
- •Gun law passed with overwhelming support in 27 days
- •Speed enabled by consensus-building and moral clarity
- •Leadership as turning pain into policy change
- 13:52 – 17:28
Leading with kindness as a political strategy—and its internal risks
Jacinda defines kindness not just as policy outcomes but as changing how politics is done: staying ‘relentlessly positive’ and avoiding personal attacks. She also acknowledges the leadership challenge this creates internally—maintaining respectful dissent and avoiding consensus bias.
- •Kindness as both ‘what we do’ and ‘how we do it’
- •Reducing ‘conflict fatigue’ among the public
- •Avoiding personal attacks while still holding principles accountable
- •Creating room for internal debate without undermining a respectful culture
- 17:28 – 19:21
Pregnancy in power: public expectations, private uncertainty, and empathy for parents
Jacinda discusses learning she was pregnant during coalition negotiations and the pressures of timing, secrecy, and public judgment. Parenting sharpened her understanding of competing obligations and deepened her appreciation for the realities faced by sole parents.
- •Pregnancy discovered during decisive coalition talks
- •Fear of public perception and the need for privacy early on
- •The ‘push-pull’ of competing responsibilities
- •Greater empathy for parents—especially sole parents—and human constraints
- 19:21 – 23:19
Leading through COVID: decisive speed built on preparation and expert input
Jacinda explains how habits linked to self-doubt—overpreparing and seeking information—became assets during COVID. She emphasizes expert engagement, clarity about tradeoffs, and transparency as tools for building trust during fast, high-stakes decision-making.
- •Preparedness and information-gathering as a decisiveness enabler
- •Bringing in experts early and often
- •Transparency: sharing what’s known, unknown, and why decisions are made
- •Trust rising early in the pandemic through clear communication
- 23:19 – 25:21
When trust ebbs: vaccines, fatigue, disinformation, and threats to perceived freedom
The discussion shifts to why later pandemic phases became harder: vaccine hesitancy, exhaustion, disinformation, and external interference. Adam adds ‘reactance’—resistance to mandates and perceived loss of freedom—while Jacinda stresses the need to study these dynamics despite collective avoidance.
- •Second-phase difficulties: rollout, fatigue, and polarization
- •Disinformation and possible offshore interference complicate response
- •Reactance to mandates and restrictions as a driver of backlash
- •Need for post-crisis reflection to prepare for future pandemics
- 25:21 – 27:15
Tall poppy syndrome and gender dynamics—without personalizing the backlash
Adam raises cultural and gendered pressures that may intensify backlash against standout leaders. Jacinda agrees these factors exist but avoids centering them, emphasizing accountability and the broader global pattern of pandemic-era disillusionment across different cultures and leader profiles.
- •Tall poppy syndrome as an egalitarian norm with a sharp edge
- •Jacinda’s preference for accountability over self-exculpation
- •Global pandemic backlash wasn’t limited to NZ or women leaders
- •Data contrasts early outcomes in women-led jurisdictions
- 27:15 – 29:46
Regret vs remorse: saving lives, accepting division, and learning the right lessons
Jacinda articulates a key distinction: regret implies certainty about what should have been done differently; remorse is sadness about harms while still questioning what alternatives were feasible. She acknowledges unpopular choices and the moral weight of prioritizing lives even if it increased division.
- •Independent estimates: policies saved ~20,000 lives
- •Remorse = sadness + openness to better approaches; regret = certainty
- •Micro-moments of choosing health outcomes over popularity
- •Leadership as making hard tradeoffs under uncertainty
- 29:46 – 32:33
Stepping down: ‘not enough in the tank,’ loneliness, and lowering the political temperature
Jacinda explains her resignation as the culmination of multiple ‘micro moments’—not collapse, but a sense of diminishing reserves needed for crises. She describes the loneliness of the choice and her belief that leaving could reduce heat in politics and help her party preserve progress.
- •Decision driven by reserves and responsibility, not acute burnout
- •Lonely leadership decisions due to political constraints
- •Desire to ‘bring the temperature down’ after COVID-era tensions
- •Being a symbolic flashpoint and wanting to reduce public strain
- 32:33 – 38:06
Lightning round and closing: optimism as courage, and choosing empathy over ‘thicker skin’
A rapid Q&A covers leadership habits (sleep, trailblazing, changing one’s mind) and what’s missing in politics (humility, integrity). The conversation ends with Jacinda’s belief that optimism is moral courage and her refusal to trade empathy for emotional armor—because empathy makes leaders better.
- •Worst leadership ‘advice’: glorifying overwork; advocating sleep
- •Breaking ceilings by thinking about who follows behind you
- •Optimism as a deliberate, courageous choice (Shackleton)
- •Rejecting ‘thicker skin’ to preserve empathy in decision-making
