Jacinda Ardern on empathetic leadership | ReThinking with Adam Grant

Adam Grant 0:00 Hey everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to ReThinking, my TED podcast on the science of what makes us tick. I'm an organizational psychologist, and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking. My guest today is Dame Jacinda Ardern. She was the Prime Minister of New Zealand. She's the author of the new book, A Different Kind of Power, and she also has a new documentary out called Prime Minister. I'm excited to talk with her about empathetic leadership, why kindness is not weakness but strength, how she managed impostor syndrome, and what she's rethought when it comes to leading through COVID. [upbeat music] Dame Jacinda Ardern, welcome to ReThinking, or should I say kia ora?

Jacinda Ardern 0:44 You should say kia ora, and you should also just say Jacinda. It's, [laughs] it's a real pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.

Adam Grant 0:49 Welcome.

Jacinda Ardern 0:49 Thank you.

Adam Grant 0:50 Uh, really, I've been looking forward to this for a long time. I've studied your leadership from a distance for h- half a decade now.

Jacinda Ardern 0:56 Yeah.

Adam Grant 0:57 So here we are.

Jacinda Ardern 0:58 Which is a very aging thing to say, but thank you. I appreciate it. [laughs]

Adam Grant 1:01 Well, we're the same age, so I don't, I don't feel that way at all. I, I have so many things I'm, I'm curious to talk to you about.

Jacinda Ardern 1:06 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 1:06 But maybe

Adam Grant 1:08 I want to start with the, the dedication of your book.

Jacinda Ardern 1:10 Mm.

Adam Grant 1:11 It was, it was so unusual. So are you saying you're a crier and a hugger and a worrier too?

Jacinda Ardern 1:16 Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I'd add a few things to that list, but yeah. I'd noticed that anyone who had listened to my departure speech from the New Zealand Parliament would from time to time come up and behind a closed hand would whisper either that they, I, you know, that they themselves were a bit of a crier or a bit of a hugger, as if it was some kind of secret society. [laughs] And so it occurred to me that there is perhaps this group of people who exclude themselves from, potentially from leadership because they see themselves in that way, and because we're so attuned to seeing those character traits as being inconsistent with leadership. And so I really wanted to speak to those who whisper behind a closed hand, I guess. And so the, yeah, that was the dedication for me. You know, I feel like I have nothing to lose by talking about that. I talk about impostor syndrome as well, or people who have a confidence gap, because I think it's wrong to assume these things are incompatible with leadership.

Adam Grant 2:18 I think so too. In fact, um, Basima Tu fix research suggests that impostor thoughts are more common among people who are extremely high achievers.

Jacinda Ardern 2:26 Well, I see, I have, I have, you know, no evidence to back up these assumptions, but I have noticed from the conversations that perhaps I've been more inclined to have because I've talked openly about this, that some of the people that I really respect and admire, uh, fall into that category themselves. And in fact, you know, it was o- one of my favorite teachers in high school who first introduced this concept to me. And because the first person who talked about it was someone that I thought couldn't possibly suffer from this and who was so incredible, that it created this mindset for me that, you know, sometimes great people doubt themselves. We don't talk about it a lot. Maybe we should.

Adam Grant 3:05 Well,

Adam Grant 3:06 let's.

Jacinda Ardern 3:07 Yes. [laughs]

Adam Grant 3:07 So I think there's, there's a difference between debilitating doubt-

Jacinda Ardern 3:10 Yes

Adam Grant 3:10 ... which is, you know, I'm a fraud, it's only a matter of minutes until everyone finds out, and maybe more motivating doubt, which is, I wonder if I'm as good as other people think I am. I wonder if I'm up to this challenge.

Jacinda Ardern 3:22 I, I, I totally agree with you. From any conversation I've had, it's clearly a, a spectrum. And, you know, as much as I talk about the fact that what I describe as a confidence gap, that idea that if someone suggests to you, you should step up to something, your immediate thought is all of the reasons why you're not capable of doing something of that nature, and, and that can lend itself to you excluding yourself from those opportunities. However, those same things that might cause you to hold back or worry that, you know, you might not have enough information to, to do a role competently are the same things that can drive you to better prepare, to bring in advice and to bring in experts. And I think that there's some advantage to that in leadership. But again, you're right, there's a spectrum there, and I think we have to really be careful that it doesn't tip into a space where it's so overwhelming that you can't possibly move beyond it.

Adam Grant 4:18 Well,

Adam Grant 4:19 so I wanna understand from you how. Um, you became prime minister at age 37.

Jacinda Ardern 4:24 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 4:24 Which makes me feel like, what am I doing with my life? [laughs]

Jacinda Ardern 4:28 [laughs]

Adam Grant 4:28 Um, but so young to be, I, I think at the time you were the, the youngest female head of state in the world.

Jacinda Ardern 4:34 Yes. Q- Soon, soon overtaken by Sanna Marin-

Adam Grant 4:37 Mm-hmm

Jacinda Ardern 4:37 ... but at that time, yeah.

Adam Grant 4:38 It, I mean, it's just, it's so hard to imagine being that young-

Jacinda Ardern 4:41 Mm

Adam Grant 4:41 ... and being in such a high position of power and status. What were the impostor thoughts and feelings like then, and, and how did you manage them?

Jacinda Ardern 4:48 Yeah, in a way they were both exacerbated and also simultaneously overcome by circumstance, because it wasn't the case that I pursued that level of higher office. In fact, you know, I was, you know, to give a little bit of background, I was the deputy leader in our party, and that, that doesn't mean that you're on, that you're necessarily next in line, it just means that I was a good loyal foot soldier who was in support of the leader. But, uh, there I was in this role. Uh, I'd only been in there since, um, March of 2017, and we were l- coming into a, another election. And we'd been in opposition for nine years when our polling really wasn't looking good. And so the latest poll came in, and my leader privately said to me, "I don't know if I can do it." I tried to encourage him to stay, um, for all the reasons [laughs] that I've discussed, but then he came to work a week later and he quit. And so in lots of ways, it did really feel like the decision flipped from being one that I proactively Could pursue or would pursue to just simply being a question of responsibility. Leadership, uh, and the responsibility, the sense of responsibility to take on something if asked can sometimes override self-doubt, and maybe that's not a bad push and pull.

Adam Grant 6:09 Yeah, I, I think that's actually a really healthy attitude.

Jacinda Ardern 6:11 Mm.

Adam Grant 6:11 It, it tracks with what in psychology we would distinguish between seeing leadership as an opportunity versus a responsibility.

Jacinda Ardern 6:17 Yeah. I, I am interested, though, in those circumstances, what does it mean for them leaving at a healthy point if you feel a burden of responsibility? How long does that carry through?

Adam Grant 6:28 I think people who are, are in it for, for somewhat self-serving reasons-

Jacinda Ardern 6:33 Yeah

Adam Grant 6:33 ... they're very eager to claim the identity and the title of leadership.

Jacinda Ardern 6:37 Mm.

Adam Grant 6:37 And they're very hesitant to, to loosen their grip on it.

Jacinda Ardern 6:40 Yeah.

Adam Grant 6:40 Um, and I, I think your instincts are right, that the opposite might be true for-

Jacinda Ardern 6:44 Yes

Adam Grant 6:44 ... people who are more reluctant.

Jacinda Ardern 6:45 And certainly in political leadership, you can't really canvas widely the decision to leave because it is something that if, if it, if it's found out or heard, the decision gets taken out of your hands. So that was challenging, and the departure was a lonely decision for that reason.

Adam Grant 7:03 Well, I wanna talk more about that.

Jacinda Ardern 7:05 Mm.

Adam Grant 7:05 Before we get there, though-

Jacinda Ardern 7:06 I've jumped straight to leaving. [laughs]

Adam Grant 7:08 I mean, uh, eagerly, right?

Jacinda Ardern 7:10 Yes.

Adam Grant 7:11 I, I think one, one thing that's really interesting about how you, you narrated your own feelings-

Jacinda Ardern 7:16 Mm

Adam Grant 7:16 ... of being an imposter is you called yourself a loyal foot soldier.

Jacinda Ardern 7:19 Yes.

Adam Grant 7:19 And that, that says to me that your identity was follower, not leader.

Jacinda Ardern 7:23 That's certainly how I viewed myself. Uh, it is an interesting, I think, practice, though, that in politics there's an assumption that if you go into it, you must be motivated by a level of personal ambition, and that's really borne out by the fact that so many people ask you, "Oh, so when are you gonna be prime minister?" Or, "When are you gonna be leader?" Assuming that everyone who goes into it must have that ambition, whereas I can't think of many examples where that would be the case, say, in the private sector.

Adam Grant 7:51 Yeah.

Jacinda Ardern 7:51 So that is a burden that politics carries, that you ... That that is the motivating factor, when actually there's plenty of people that that is not the case. That's not why they're there. That's not what motivates them.

Adam Grant 8:04 So your boss quits-

Jacinda Ardern 8:05 Mm-hmm

Adam Grant 8:05 ... and you assume you're gonna lose at that point, right?

Jacinda Ardern 8:09 Certainly, even if it was unspoken, the assumption was try not to lose too badly. And so maybe that lessened the pressure, but that unfortunately was not the position throughout the campaign. It shifted.

Adam Grant 8:24 Okay, and then at some point you realize this is happening.

Jacinda Ardern 8:28 Yes.

Adam Grant 8:28 What did that do to the, the feeling of being an imposter?

Jacinda Ardern 8:31 Soon as I became leader, there was no time to dwell on that one dueling, you know, sentiment that I had around that confidence gap because the sense of responsibility completely took over. And I knew that I just had to lead with confidence, that I had to focus on the job that I had, and anything else just felt self-indulgent. You know, I just needed to move forward, put it away in a box. The issue, though, became that the pressure, you know, the pressure really increased in my mind. Not to sound too grandiose, but when you're in politics because you think that you can make a difference, you know, suddenly you're thinking about people's p- you know, wellbeing, whether you're gonna have the opportunity to do something on housing and climate and child poverty, and those are big issues to feel a weight of responsibility around. But up against that, you know, my little personal confidence gap just needed to, just needed to sit in a corner for a while.

Adam Grant 9:24 Just lock it away.

Jacinda Ardern 9:25 Lock it away.

Adam Grant 9:26 So it's interesting, though, that you said the, the responsibility that you felt-

Jacinda Ardern 9:30 Yeah

Adam Grant 9:30 ... just, it, it took over.

Jacinda Ardern 9:31 Yeah.

Adam Grant 9:32 Because one impression I got from reading the book was that in some ways that sense of responsibility got you in trouble when you were younger.

Jacinda Ardern 9:39 [laughs] Yes.

Adam Grant 9:40 You, the ... Uh, which is a little counterintuitive, but you, you talk about how the desire to be useful was-

Jacinda Ardern 9:45 Yeah

Adam Grant 9:45 ... sometimes problematic.

Jacinda Ardern 9:46 Yeah, yeah.

Adam Grant 9:46 So tell me about that-

Jacinda Ardern 9:47 Yeah

Adam Grant 9:47 ... and how it then played into life as a new prime minister.

Jacinda Ardern 9:51 So interesting 'cause, and there's some things that you don't necessarily see the through lines on in your life until you write them down, and suddenly [laughs] you're like, "Oh, there it is." [laughs] You know, for example, out on our ... Uh, at that time it was an orchard owned by my grandparents, and I would've only been about four, and I just loved going into the, the old cool store sheds and seeing the, the way that the conveyors with all of the fruit worked and the packing house and tractors bringing the bins in and out. And I was up there trying to, you know, figure out what I could do in that little space when I found, uh, one of the machines for packing boxes, and had a little play with it and ended up slicing, um, slicing my face. I have a little scar down my nose to this, to this day. Just those little moments where you're like, yeah, I was always, always there trying to be, trying to be a bit older than I was, you know, thinking that I was being useful. And all of the things that I remember about those early conversations, being really chuffed whenever I felt like I'd done something that was beyond my age or stronger than I was meant to be. So yeah, it, it, I guess it manifested early, and not through politics.

Adam Grant 11:06 Yeah. I mean, this is, this is something I feel like I've done a really poor job capturing in, in the work that I've done on, on givers versus takers-

Jacinda Ardern 11:12 Mm

Adam Grant 11:12 ... where I've, I've found lots of benefits of being somebody who enjoys helping others without strings attached and-

Jacinda Ardern 11:18 Yes

Adam Grant 11:19 ... many longterm costs of being someone who is-

Jacinda Ardern 11:22 [laughs]

Adam Grant 11:22 ... is all about me. But there is this, this sense in which no good deed goes unpunished, and people say that the road to hell is sometimes paved with good intentions.

Jacinda Ardern 11:30 [laughs]

Adam Grant 11:31 So how did, how did you manage that as prime minister early on?

Jacinda Ardern 11:35 You know, I think that in writing about how it feels to lead when you're driven by empathy and compassion and, and a sense of duty, you know, it meant sharing a little bit of the insight as to the toll that that takes, but there's a privilege to that as well. Even in the hardest moments, I think you never lose sight of the fact that you have that proximity to grief because of the, the role that you have. And unlike many other experiences where you feel, oh, you know, this is such a horrific thing that's happened, what can I do? Actually, suddenly you're in a place where you can do something about it. So yeah, maybe you do pay a price, but one that you're willing to pay, if that makes sense.

Adam Grant 12:20 It does. It does. In psychology, we would say let's not talk about compassion fatigue-

Jacinda Ardern 12:24 Yeah

Adam Grant 12:24 ... because it's not compassion that drains you, it's empathic distress.

Jacinda Ardern 12:27 Yes. Yes.

Adam Grant 12:28 It's the, the feeling of hurting for someone else, but not being able to help.

Jacinda Ardern 12:32 Thank you for putting some language to it, because I've never been able to fully explain it. [laughs]

Adam Grant 12:36 That's literally all I can do, so...

Jacinda Ardern 12:38 But it is, it is so true. You know, I think about how horrific the grief around March 15 was, and, and I, my real sense in that moment from New Zealanders who just felt that grief so acutely was they wanted, in that moment, politics and leadership to, to do something. And so when people say how, for instance, did you manage to change gun legislation so quickly? Because that law passed to ban military-style and semi-automatic weapons, that law passed, uh, with 119 votes in favor and one opposed within 27 days of the attack.

Adam Grant 13:11 Wow.

Jacinda Ardern 13:11 And, and I absolutely believe it was, again, because of that strong desire to just channel that grief into a response.

Adam Grant 13:21 So when I think about your leadership on the world stage, um, certainly I think that that mass shooting is a visible example. I think of you being in your late 30s and pregnant.

Jacinda Ardern 13:34 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 13:34 That's another, another example that probably-

Jacinda Ardern 13:36 They call that a geriatric pregnancy. [laughs] It's like ageism. [laughs]

Adam Grant 13:40 I don't think that's a helpful framing for anyone.

Jacinda Ardern 13:41 I really... So I keep putting it out there in the hope that someone says, "Yeah, we should change that." [laughs]

Adam Grant 13:47 [laughs] Um, how about a wise pregnancy?

Jacinda Ardern 13:50 Yeah. [laughs] That's... I said seasoned. Something.

Adam Grant 13:52 That works. I'd love to hear you talk both about what it meant for you to lead with kindness, and then also what was it like to be welcoming a child at the same time-

Jacinda Ardern 14:00 That's a two-

Adam Grant 14:00 ... that you're taking the helm of a country

Jacinda Ardern 14:02 ... two very, very big questions. I think when we think about these ideas of kindness, we, w- you know, we often think about the manifestation of that and policy delivery, and sure, that was a, you know, a big thing for us. But also, I, I wanted to change the way we did politics and the way that we governed, which I think is equally important. I don't think it's fair to say, "Well, we're gonna be a government of kindness, but I'm gonna engage in the most horrific political attacks with my opponents you can imagine." And so we from the outset said, "Okay, we want, I want us to be relentlessly positive," and that I wasn't going to attack my opponents on personal matters. We were going to stick to the issues. And I tried to maintain that the entire time I was in office as well. And so I want... You know, Prime Minister Anthony Albanese in Australia has spoken of this idea of conflict fatigue, and I think it's real. And I think the more that you hear just that conflict between politicians, the less you believe that politicians are focused on the things that are affecting you. So for us it was about what we did, but how we did it as well, and kindness for me was a good guiding principle in both.

Adam Grant 15:09 So the, the other, I guess the other thing that surfaces for me is either, like, you, you get rid of the fatigue factor, or you create an adverse selection problem, where the kinds of people who enjoy conflict, who are sometimes called conflict entrepreneurs-

Jacinda Ardern 15:22 [laughs]

Adam Grant 15:22 ... um, who are intens- intensely disagreeable, who are Machiavellian, who might be narcissistic or sociopathic, um, are the ones who are attracted to office. And-

Jacinda Ardern 15:30 Exactly

Adam Grant 15:31 ... I don't think we want that either.

Jacinda Ardern 15:32 Exactly, and that's where this gets really interesting, when people say, "Well, the idea of, you know, compassionate or empathetic leadership can't survive." Well, what is the alternative? Uh, and I think we do want people who have humility and, and value those traits to be in politics. And, and I do think we're in a period where good people are self-excluding because they see a very particular leadership style that is not necessarily who we want in our representative politics. The flip side, however, which, you know, I think we also had to end up being mindful of, if you are within your team building a, an approach where you do wanna do things differently, how do you still allow or create an environment where people are able to bring ideas that cont- you know, might be counter to others, that you are engaging still in respectful debate? Because you do run the risk of this kind of consensus bias because you don't wanna rock the boat of your, of your friendly team environment. So that almost was what we had to be mindful of.

Adam Grant 16:33 I love on its face the idea of, you know, not engaging in personal attacks-

Jacinda Ardern 16:37 Yeah

Adam Grant 16:37 ... in politics. But I also see leaders on the world stage whose character needs to be attacked because they fail to stand for principles that-

Jacinda Ardern 16:46 Mm-hmm

Adam Grant 16:47 ... I think you hold dear.

Jacinda Ardern 16:48 Yeah. Well, look-

Adam Grant 16:49 Um, leaders who are not kind, leaders who are not humble, for example.

Jacinda Ardern 16:51 There is a place to hold that to account because you're doing it every day, and the way that's manifesting in the policy decisions someone's making, you absolutely can test that. But if I give you an example, it might be for instance that something's happened in someone's, uh, in someone's life that brings into question their personal behavior. If that was not a member of my team, then I considered that to be an issue of discipline for that team and their leadership. So I wouldn't pile in on that. That was a leadership issue for them, and I was in charge of managing my own team's conduct and behavior. So that, that was the way I would draw a distinction.

Adam Grant 17:27 Got it. Okay, that's helpful.

Jacinda Ardern 17:28 Mm.

Adam Grant 17:28 Okay,

Adam Grant 17:29 so now, um, pregnancy.

Jacinda Ardern 17:31 Yeah, small matter.

Adam Grant 17:32 So [laughs] yeah.

Jacinda Ardern 17:33 [laughs]

Adam Grant 17:33 Tiny topic, but I, I'm, I'm so curious about the, the simultaneous experience of welcoming a child into the world and feeling that responsibility-

Jacinda Ardern 17:41 Yeah

Adam Grant 17:41 ... at the same time that you're responsible for a whole country.

Jacinda Ardern 17:44 Feels very similar. [laughs]

Adam Grant 17:46 Does it?

Jacinda Ardern 17:47 It can do.

Adam Grant 17:47 Does it?

Jacinda Ardern 17:47 It can do, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. In fact, I thought about this a, a, a lot, and while you, you know, it's not exactly the same thing, that push and pull of where you're meant to be and who you're meant to be with was very acute in this, in that particular role. But the timing of everything was Probably, I mean, pretty poor [laughs] on my part because whilst we were in coalition negotiations to find out would this minor party who had the balance of power, would they choose my party or would they choose the conservative party? And if they chose mine, I would become the prime minister. And we were close to the end of those negotiations when I found out I was pregnant. And of course, my immediate thought was, well, uh, this is one for the books, but also I, I can't share this because the pregnancy may not hold. Uh, and also, gosh, what will people, what will people think? You know, will they think that I wasn't prioritizing this, this role? And there was so much more to it, but I couldn't say that at the time.

Adam Grant 18:46 Well, it won't, it won't surprise you, there's evidence that parents with young children tend to be more focused and more productive than people who are single and childless because when you have a lot on your plate, you get really good at prioritizing.

Jacinda Ardern 18:57 Well, you s- you [laughs] got that old, that old saying. But it also made me think, I remember when I had Nave, I really remember thinking sole parents are superhuman. How do people do this on their own? How do they do it on their own? And so it definitely made me think, uh, about that individual human experience in, in much greater detail.

Adam Grant 19:21 So I think you, you referenced the, the need both for humility and for dissent and debate earlier.

Jacinda Ardern 19:28 Mm.

Adam Grant 19:28 And I wanna, I wanna talk more about that.

Jacinda Ardern 19:30 Mm.

Adam Grant 19:30 Because I think nowhere was that more relevant than in the early days of COVID. That's for me, the other iconic image of you, is like watching you on a video screen in a sweatshirt-

Jacinda Ardern 19:39 Yeah. [laughs]

Adam Grant 19:39 ... delivering an address to a nation.

Jacinda Ardern 19:41 It's such, it's such an unfortunate association, a pandemic, but it is [laughs] what it is.

Adam Grant 19:46 I thought it stood out as a model of, you know, both clear communication, but also caring leadership-

Jacinda Ardern 19:52 Mm

Adam Grant 19:52 ... to, to show symbolically, "Hey, I'm, I'm in lockdown with you." When I think about the early days of COVID, I think about that as the kind of situation where I tell leaders they have to be both fast and slow at the same time.

Jacinda Ardern 20:04 Yeah.

Adam Grant 20:04 Which is uniquely difficult, right?

Jacinda Ardern 20:06 Yeah.

Adam Grant 20:06 Because you're making decisions that are highly consequential.

Jacinda Ardern 20:09 Yes.

Adam Grant 20:09 They're also irreversible.

Jacinda Ardern 20:11 Yeah.

Adam Grant 20:11 And so you have to get it right, but you also can't afford to delay.

Jacinda Ardern 20:14 No.

Adam Grant 20:15 And so I, I imagine you felt this tremendous tension between-

Jacinda Ardern 20:19 Yeah

Adam Grant 20:19 ... being decisive-

Jacinda Ardern 20:20 Yes

Adam Grant 20:20 ... and also encouraging people to disagree and bring in different perspectives.

Jacinda Ardern 20:24 Yeah.

Adam Grant 20:24 How did you manage that?

Jacinda Ardern 20:25 I think this is where some of the old hangovers of things like self-doubt, you know, or y- n- your, your way of managing that for most people is to overprepare. Just bring in as much information as you can, can. Try and become the subject expert so that you're not caught short. [laughs]

Adam Grant 20:43 Stall, stall, stall. Yeah.

Jacinda Ardern 20:44 I wouldn't necessarily see it as a stall, but rather just ensuring that you have a level of preparedness on an issue. And what I found helpful therefore was because I had that habit, uh, it meant that when it came to decision-making, I was probably more decisive because I had done as much preparatory work as I could on understanding this virus, and also was no hesitation to bring in experts. I wanted to speak to everyone that I could. When it came to the importance of trying to build consensus as much as you could at a time that was really scary for people, transparency was key. Just being really clear, we don't have all the answers, but this is everything we have, uh, and this is our plan in an imperfect decision-making environment. And I think in a way that built trust and, you know, there's, there's some of that interesting data around, you know, trust in, in, in government institutions increasing for a period in 2020. Certainly in our case it did. But then I think the really interesting thing is it ebbed away.

Adam Grant 21:48 Yeah. I do wanna highlight for me, your communication during that time was just, it was a master class in leading with what I've come to think of as confident humility.

Jacinda Ardern 21:58 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 21:59 That on the one hand, you're saying like, "Here is the best information I have, and we're gonna formulate policy based on that." And at the same time, there's a lot of uncertainty.

Jacinda Ardern 22:07 Yeah.

Adam Grant 22:08 And as science evolves, our plans are, are gonna evolve with it. And I've watched so many leaders screw that up.

Jacinda Ardern 22:14 Mm.

Adam Grant 22:14 How did you find the confidence to admit what you didn't know?

Jacinda Ardern 22:18 In my mind, all of the questions that you have as a leader, you can assume are going to generally be the questions that others will have as well. And so share that. You know, use that as a bit of a guide. What are you worried about in terms of an information gap? Speak to that. We falsely make the assumption that if we're only going to build confidence in leaders, if we demonstrate absolute knowledge absolutely, but actually no human expects that. In fact, I think if you try and portray that or imply that, people immediately are like, "How do you know? How do you know?" And then COVID was such a good example. It was so clear to people that we didn't know because if we did, we wouldn't have had such variation in people's responses globally. So speaking to what intuitively people felt, you don't have all the answers, so don't try and tell me you do. I think it helped build trust and confidence, and it meant that when you did come out and say, "Based on what we have, we believe this is the best response at this time," then people I think could say, "Well, actually I've been on this information journey with you," and I, I think that it, it's the case too. It is interesting that that second phase of the pandemic was when things became really difficult, and so much of that was in correlation for the period of time when we had vaccine rollout. And I leave it to experts to tell us and share with us what we should learn from that, but we weren't starting from a blank canvas. You know, we've had issues around vaccine hesitancy, which actually was the predominant issue, was hesitancy. But we saw Equally, other complicating factors at that time as well. There was fatigue with, um, the whole COVID experience. There was disinformation. Um, there was even in some cases, you know, a bit of interference [laughs] offshore with what was going on. So complex environment, and it got hard. It got really hard.

Adam Grant 24:12 So you, you captured, I think, three of, of my hunches-

Jacinda Ardern 24:16 Yeah

Adam Grant 24:16 ... about what was going on in terms of-

Jacinda Ardern 24:17 Mm

Adam Grant 24:17 ... preexisting vaccine hesitancy and misinformation-

Jacinda Ardern 24:20 Yeah

Adam Grant 24:21 ... uh, or disinformation-

Jacinda Ardern 24:22 Yeah

Adam Grant 24:23 ... and then fatigue.

Jacinda Ardern 24:24 Yeah.

Adam Grant 24:24 If I could add three more to the table, I'd love to get your reaction. Um, one, one that loomed large for me was, uh, psychological reactance.

Jacinda Ardern 24:32 Yes.

Adam Grant 24:32 Threats to the loss of freedom.

Jacinda Ardern 24:33 Yes.

Adam Grant 24:34 The mandates in particular-

Jacinda Ardern 24:35 Yeah

Adam Grant 24:35 ... around vaccines.

Jacinda Ardern 24:36 Yeah.

Adam Grant 24:36 The mandates around lockdowns.

Jacinda Ardern 24:38 Yeah.

Adam Grant 24:38 There, there was a at least a large, I would say, a minority of people in many countries who said, "The government should not control my freedom."

Jacinda Ardern 24:45 Yeah. Yeah. And I think what was important for us was in the aftermath to ask experts to look at that, just to look at actually all of the tools because the really unfortunate issue we all face is that we had a horrific experience with a pandemic, but it's unlikely to be the only experience, and we need, we need to try and learn from it so that we are better prepared. M- my concern is that it was so horrific that people don't wanna talk about it and they don't wanna reflect on those experiences, and I understand that, but we need, we need some people to.

Adam Grant 25:21 I'm wholeheartedly with you on that, and there's a part of me that wonders, you know, just thinking about, like, that, that curve that you're describing-

Jacinda Ardern 25:29 Yeah

Adam Grant 25:29 ... of trust going up and then it, it falling dramatically. I think you were a distinctive victim of that, maybe in part because of a combination of the tall poppy syndrome issue-

Jacinda Ardern 25:38 [laughs]

Adam Grant 25:38 ... and the cultural context in which, um, nobody is allowed to stand out or get too big for their britches-

Jacinda Ardern 25:44 Yes, yes

Adam Grant 25:44 ... uh, which you alluded to earlier. And then also the stereotypes and prejudice that still exist around women in leadership.

Jacinda Ardern 25:51 I didn't bring them up, I guess, for two reasons. One is because I, I never wanna give the appearance that there's no issue to be looked at. I'm, you know, somehow everything else going on rather than my own personal leadership or decisions. I do think we should, as politicians, be held to account, and even though there was a bunch of circumstances going on at the time that made those decision-making really hard, doesn't mean we shouldn't go back and look critically at them. The other reason, I think, is that actually there was a almost a universal theme to some of what we saw globally, and some of those cultures don't have the same issue with tall poppy, and some of them had male leaders. And so there was something that happened in that time with everyone, not just for women in politics or women in leadership, and certainly, you know, not just for me, but I've never found much use in personalizing it, if that makes sense. [laughs]

Adam Grant 26:41 It does. It does. But I, I have to say as a social scientist-

Jacinda Ardern 26:44 Mm

Adam Grant 26:44 ... when, when I look at the data, um, you can see this at two levels. One is, um, comparing countries around the world.

Jacinda Ardern 26:51 Mm-hmm.

Adam Grant 26:51 The other is comparing states within the US.

Jacinda Ardern 26:53 Mm, mm.

Adam Grant 26:54 Um, in the early phases of the pandemic, um, states and countries led by women had lower mortality rate. Basically, it seems to be driven by clearer and more empathetic communication around policies. And so, you know, we, we have the data, right? We know what's the counterfactual, how many more thousands of people would have died if you hadn't taken the action you did.

Jacinda Ardern 27:12 20,000.

Adam Grant 27:12 20,000.

Jacinda Ardern 27:12 Mm.

Adam Grant 27:13 Um, we, we can document that, right?

Jacinda Ardern 27:15 Mm. You know, when you, when you do have independent research that says, "We think that this approach saved 20,000 lives," it's very hard then to think about dispassionately, well, is there a way that we could have done that without some of these other things? Uh, the answer is I don't know, but I wanna ask the questions.

Adam Grant 27:31 That speaks to a distinction you make in the book between-

Jacinda Ardern 27:33 Mm

Adam Grant 27:33 ... regret and remorse.

Jacinda Ardern 27:34 Yes.

Adam Grant 27:35 Tell me about that.

Jacinda Ardern 27:36 Regret has so much clarity. I regret X, Y, or Zed. Um, remorse is I have sadness for some of the outcomes, but please tell me what, what we should have done differently. I guess that's how I would express it.

Adam Grant 27:49 Yeah.

Jacinda Ardern 27:50 But am I, am I unhappy we saved lives? No. No.

Adam Grant 27:52 No. And in, and I'm guessing if, you know, back in 2019 if somebody had asked you, "You have a choice. You can either unite people-

Jacinda Ardern 27:59 Yeah

Adam Grant 27:59 ... and lose more lives-

Jacinda Ardern 28:00 Yeah

Adam Grant 28:01 ... or you can save lives and the country will be more divided."

Jacinda Ardern 28:03 Yeah.

Adam Grant 28:04 You would have made-

Jacinda Ardern 28:05 Yeah

Adam Grant 28:05 ... the choice you made.

Jacinda Ardern 28:06 Yeah. And in fact, there are micro moments where I knew that was the choice I was making, or at least I felt at that time that was the choice I was making. Some of the decisions that at that time I thought, "There's so much fatigue. People are so tired." Um, but it, you know, we still hel- held the belief that we, we needed to keep going while we were vaccinating people. I knew that those were unpopular choices. Um, but, you know, I guess that's leadership.

Adam Grant 28:32 So I wanna,

Adam Grant 28:33 I wanna bring this back then to tall poppy syndrome, um, because I-

Jacinda Ardern 28:36 Is this a worldwide, do you-

Adam Grant 28:38 No

Jacinda Ardern 28:38 ... understand, phrase? So it's very New Zealand. We know it very well.

Adam Grant 28:40 Australia and New Zealand-

Jacinda Ardern 28:41 Yeah

Adam Grant 28:41 ... is, is where I know the-

Jacinda Ardern 28:42 Yes

Adam Grant 28:42 ... the research at least.

Jacinda Ardern 28:43 Yeah. I also appreciate this so much about New Zealand. When you are in politics, it's very much the you are there to serve. You are there to do a job on behalf of others, and it's a privilege. Uh, and at the same time, whilst you have that role, don't, don't come above your station. Most New Zealanders will remember a, an MP who had a few other things going on, but actually the trigger for his resignation was that in a, a restaurant once, he got into some kind of altercation, and he responded, "Don't you know who I am?" Oh, you do not.

Adam Grant 29:17 How dare you?

Jacinda Ardern 29:19 You absolutely do not talk like that in New Zealand. [laughs] And I, I appreciate that New Zealanders have that egalitarian sense that they expect humility. The flip side of that is this idea of if New Zealanders do well or if they're achieving, we will be really proud of them, but there's an expectation that you, that, that you don't ever get too big for your boots, and I guess that's where the tall poppy comes in.

Adam Grant 29:46 Yeah, very much so. Well, okay, so

Adam Grant 29:48 you were eager to talk about stepping down.

Jacinda Ardern 29:50 Yes.

Adam Grant 29:51 [laughs]

Jacinda Ardern 29:51 Yes.

Adam Grant 29:52 The decision to, the, the choice to resign.

Jacinda Ardern 29:52 We're gonna fast-forward here. 12 months has passed. 12 months has passed. [laughs]

Adam Grant 29:55 [laughs]

Jacinda Ardern 29:55 It's kind of important for me. It's not like COVID leave. There was, there was, there was time.

Adam Grant 30:00 Yeah, no, a lot of time.

Jacinda Ardern 30:01 Yeah.

Adam Grant 30:01 How did you decide- To step down and when to step down.

Jacinda Ardern 30:06 I had a series of kind of micro moments, and there wasn't just this one thing for me. I gave my reasoning, my rationale, my thinking when I left, you know, that actually I could... I didn't have enough in the tank. I knew enough of disaster to know what you need to have in reserve. It wasn't the case that I was burnt out, you know, I wasn't in the fetal position in the corner, but I felt that same weight of responsibility to make sure that at any given moment I could step up a little bit further, and that was waning after five years, and, and after 15 years in politics generally. And so I just shared the micro moments going through that decision-making. No one particularly supported my decision, so it, it did feel lonely, um, but it still felt like the right one for me. I also talk a little bit about how I, I did feel that there was a heightened sentiment, and some of this probably in the aftermath of COVID. Naturally, if you lead through something like that, you're gonna carry some of the baggage of that, and I wanted to bring the temperature down. And I thought perhaps if I sat at the center, my departure might do that, and that would be for the good of politics, it would be for the good of my party, it would be for the good of holding on to so many of the important things I felt we'd made progress on.

Adam Grant 31:24 So it was a... It sounds like in some ways it was a choice to be a lightning rod.

Jacinda Ardern 31:27 Yeah, I kind of describe it as being, you know, as you say, a flash point, maybe just, uh, being unfortunately just symbolically representing a really hard time that everyone went through. I remember during COVID, uh, because we by and large had a strategy that we lived without COVID, it meant that if we had one case, if we could not figure out where that case had come from, we might have to either lock down a particular part of the country, or if it was particularly worrying, the whole country for short periods of time. And I started to worry that when people saw me unexpectedly arrive on a podium, that I would suddenly become this trigger.

Adam Grant 32:04 Oh.

Jacinda Ardern 32:05 And even going through airport security, if they saw a particular kind of rush of us moving through to get to Wellington, I thought, "Oh, people are gonna know." And I hated representing that for people. It was just part of, par for the course. But, you know, there's a long... Sure, there's probably a long-term effect for that. Um, and so yeah, I, I thought that was part of my thinking. Not in to- not in total, but it was part of my thinking.

Adam Grant 32:33 All right, so let's do a lightning round if you're ready for it.

Jacinda Ardern 32:35 Oh, I hate those. [laughs]

Adam Grant 32:37 You're not, you're not gonna hate this one.

Jacinda Ardern 32:38 Okay.

Adam Grant 32:38 We'll try. Who is your dream dinner party guest that you haven't met?

Jacinda Ardern 32:43 Can they be dead?

Adam Grant 32:44 Sure.

Jacinda Ardern 32:44 Ernest Shackleton.

Adam Grant 32:45 Okay, gonna be hard to arrange that one.

Jacinda Ardern 32:47 Yeah, I know. But still, you asked for the dream guest, so there it is. [laughs]

Adam Grant 32:50 I'll take it. What's the worst leadership advice you see given regularly?

Jacinda Ardern 32:54 Ooh. I see an absence of something. I think we should encourage sleep more because people martyr themselves, especially in leadership.

Adam Grant 33:03 Yeah.

Jacinda Ardern 33:03 Yeah.

Adam Grant 33:03 Best advice for breaking a glass ceiling?

Jacinda Ardern 33:06 Just think about the person that's following. Just gives you an extra motivation. You're carving a path for someone.

Adam Grant 33:12 Trailblazing.

Jacinda Ardern 33:13 Trailblazing. Yep.

Adam Grant 33:15 What's something you changed your mind about recently?

Jacinda Ardern 33:18 Ooh, I change my mind all the time. Um, oof. Well, I changed my mind about writing a book. I was adamant, adamant I wasn't going to, and then I did, so...

Adam Grant 33:32 You, you seem to end up doing a lot of the things you-

Jacinda Ardern 33:35 Yeah, there's a pattern [laughs]

Adam Grant 33:35 ... really don't want to do.

Jacinda Ardern 33:36 There's a pattern.

Adam Grant 33:37 And then what's a question you have for me?

Jacinda Ardern 33:39 What do you see most absent in political leadership?

Adam Grant 33:42 Oh my gosh, how many hours do you have?

Jacinda Ardern 33:43 [laughs]

Adam Grant 33:44 Like, the list, the list is never ending. I mean, it's, it's a deficit... It's a series of deficits of character.

Jacinda Ardern 33:48 Yeah.

Adam Grant 33:49 Um, I think our politics are dominated by narcissism and selfishness, and I think we should lead with generosity and humility. And if I could pick a third, integrity.

Jacinda Ardern 33:58 Do you think that's because people self-exclude, or because there aren't incentives to behave like that and succeed?

Adam Grant 34:05 I think it has to be a combination of the two.

Jacinda Ardern 34:06 Yeah.

Adam Grant 34:06 I think there's a self-selection problem, um, and a, a, a recruiting problem. But I think the incentives and norms need-

Jacinda Ardern 34:13 Yeah

Adam Grant 34:13 ... to be dramatically overhauled.

Jacinda Ardern 34:15 Do you think social media has been a democratizer or problematic for the health of democracy?

Adam Grant 34:21 I think it's been some of both.

Jacinda Ardern 34:22 Yeah.

Adam Grant 34:22 But, uh, my view has tilted more negative over time-

Jacinda Ardern 34:25 Mm

Adam Grant 34:25 ... as we've seen more polarization.

Jacinda Ardern 34:28 Mm. Yeah.

Adam Grant 34:29 Okay, that was more than one lightning question for you, Jacinda.

Jacinda Ardern 34:31 [laughs]

Adam Grant 34:32 Um, okay, let me, let me, uh, let me take the mic back here and ask you-

Jacinda Ardern 34:35 I was told I was allowed to ask questions.

Adam Grant 34:37 You... I mean, you are.

Jacinda Ardern 34:38 [laughs]

Adam Grant 34:38 But, um, I do wanna ask you,

Adam Grant 34:40 when you stepped down on this very point, you said you still believed that politics was a place where it was possible to drive positive change.

Jacinda Ardern 34:48 Yeah.

Adam Grant 34:48 Do you still think that now?

Jacinda Ardern 34:49 I do. Yep, I do. And, and what I hope is that people don't change their expectation of that as well because... You know, and I, I speak to this a bit because for me it's really important that in these moments people maintain their own optimism but also their expectation because the moment we have indifference, that is, that is a, that is a hall pass to politicians. So, you know, to anyone, if you have a particular expectation around the way that you believe politics should be done and, you know, what should be delivered, don't let that standard drop. If anything, raise it.

Adam Grant 35:24 What is it that gives you that sense of confidence and hope?

Jacinda Ardern 35:28 Just exposure. Exposure to people. You know, proximity, uh, to young people. You know, inherently we know that, uh, young people tend to be more cynical, uh, in their youth. But in amongst that cynicism I still see an optimism, "Well, you know, I'm gonna do X, Y, and Z in spite of the leadership I see around me." And so that's a cause, that's cause for hope.

Adam Grant 35:53 Well, the first time we met a few months ago, you said something that really stuck with me. You said, "Optimism is an act of courage."

Jacinda Ardern 35:59 Yes. Yes.

Adam Grant 36:00 What do you mean by that?

Jacinda Ardern 36:01 So, um, I, I have long had a obsession with Antarctic exploration, and Ernest Shackleton, and on one of the such occasion, found himself stranded in Antarctica, and keeping in mind, this is during the period of the First World War, so technology and communications weren't great, and here he is suddenly responsible for his team on the ice when his ship has sunk. No one knows that they're stranded, and his job is their survival. And the fact that during that period he was also saw that survival was dependent on their mindset, and he was the one that said, "Optimism is true moral courage." So, you know, in my mind, that's, that actually undercuts this sentiment at least that you have sometime that hope or optimism is naive. It is a choice, um, and not only is a choice, uh, it is, it, it implies actually something that is required in difficult circumstances, in trying circumstances, in order to succeed.

Adam Grant 37:06 Okay, last question for you to take us full circle. We talked about empathy earlier, and you referenced being somewhat thin-skinned.

Jacinda Ardern 37:14 Yeah.

Adam Grant 37:15 And you said you don't want a thicker skin.

Jacinda Ardern 37:17 No.

Adam Grant 37:18 Why don't you want one?

Jacinda Ardern 37:19 Because really early on I learned that thicker skin might mean losing my empathy. I'd rather have empathy because I think it's, you know, that, that's something as policy makers and decision makers makes us better at our job. And so if the price I pay is that sometimes the job hurts a little, so be it.

Adam Grant 37:36 Sometimes the people who feel things the most deeply are the ones who care the most deeply.

Jacinda Ardern 37:40 And don't we want those people in leadership?

Adam Grant 37:42 I know I certainly do.

Jacinda Ardern 37:44 Yeah.

Adam Grant 37:44 Jacinda, thank you so much for joining us.

Jacinda Ardern 37:45 Thank you. [upbeat music]