Jacinda Ardern on empathetic leadership | ReThinking with Adam Grant

1. 0:00 – 1:08

   Intro

   1. AGAdam Grant0:00

      Hey everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to ReThinking, my TED podcast on the science of what makes us tick. I'm an organizational psychologist, and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking. My guest today is Dame Jacinda Ardern. She was the Prime Minister of New Zealand. She's the author of the new book, A Different Kind of Power, and she also has a new documentary out called Prime Minister. I'm excited to talk with her about empathetic leadership, why kindness is not weakness but strength, how she managed impostor syndrome, and what she's rethought when it comes to leading through COVID. [upbeat music] Dame Jacinda Ardern, welcome to ReThinking, or should I say kia ora?

   2. JAJacinda Ardern0:44

      You should say kia ora, and you should also just say Jacinda. It's, [laughs] it's a real pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.

   3. AGAdam Grant0:49

      Welcome.

   4. JAJacinda Ardern0:49

      Thank you.

   5. AGAdam Grant0:50

      Uh, really, I've been looking forward to this for a long time. I've studied your leadership from a distance for h- half a decade now.

   6. JAJacinda Ardern0:56

      Yeah.

   7. AGAdam Grant0:57

      So here we are.

   8. JAJacinda Ardern0:58

      Which is a very aging thing to say, but thank you. I appreciate it. [laughs]

   9. AGAdam Grant1:01

      Well, we're the same age, so I don't, I don't feel that way at all. I, I have so many things I'm, I'm curious to talk to you about.

   10. JAJacinda Ardern1:06

       Mm-hmm.

   11. AGAdam Grant1:06

       But maybe

2. 1:08 – 3:06

   Criers, huggers and worriers

   1. AGAdam Grant1:08

      I want to start with the, the dedication of your book.

   2. JAJacinda Ardern1:10

      Mm.

   3. AGAdam Grant1:11

      It was, it was so unusual. So are you saying you're a crier and a hugger and a worrier too?

   4. JAJacinda Ardern1:16

      Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I'd add a few things to that list, but yeah. I'd noticed that anyone who had listened to my departure speech from the New Zealand Parliament would from time to time come up and behind a closed hand would whisper either that they, I, you know, that they themselves were a bit of a crier or a bit of a hugger, as if it was some kind of secret society. [laughs] And so it occurred to me that there is perhaps this group of people who exclude themselves from, potentially from leadership because they see themselves in that way, and because we're so attuned to seeing those character traits as being inconsistent with leadership. And so I really wanted to speak to those who whisper behind a closed hand, I guess. And so the, yeah, that was the dedication for me. You know, I feel like I have nothing to lose by talking about that. I talk about impostor syndrome as well, or people who have a confidence gap, because I think it's wrong to assume these things are incompatible with leadership.

   5. AGAdam Grant2:18

      I think so too. In fact, um, Basima Tu fix research suggests that impostor thoughts are more common among people who are extremely high achievers.

   6. JAJacinda Ardern2:26

      Well, I see, I have, I have, you know, no evidence to back up these assumptions, but I have noticed from the conversations that perhaps I've been more inclined to have because I've talked openly about this, that some of the people that I really respect and admire, uh, fall into that category themselves. And in fact, you know, it was o- one of my favorite teachers in high school who first introduced this concept to me. And because the first person who talked about it was someone that I thought couldn't possibly suffer from this and who was so incredible, that it created this mindset for me that, you know, sometimes great people doubt themselves. We don't talk about it a lot. Maybe we should.

   7. AGAdam Grant3:05

      Well,

3. 3:06 – 4:19

   Impostor syndrome

   1. AGAdam Grant3:06

      let's.

   2. JAJacinda Ardern3:07

      Yes. [laughs]

   3. AGAdam Grant3:07

      So I think there's, there's a difference between debilitating doubt-

   4. JAJacinda Ardern3:10

      Yes

   5. AGAdam Grant3:10

      ... which is, you know, I'm a fraud, it's only a matter of minutes until everyone finds out, and maybe more motivating doubt, which is, I wonder if I'm as good as other people think I am. I wonder if I'm up to this challenge.

   6. JAJacinda Ardern3:22

      I, I, I totally agree with you. From any conversation I've had, it's clearly a, a spectrum. And, you know, as much as I talk about the fact that what I describe as a confidence gap, that idea that if someone suggests to you, you should step up to something, your immediate thought is all of the reasons why you're not capable of doing something of that nature, and, and that can lend itself to you excluding yourself from those opportunities. However, those same things that might cause you to hold back or worry that, you know, you might not have enough information to, to do a role competently are the same things that can drive you to better prepare, to bring in advice and to bring in experts. And I think that there's some advantage to that in leadership. But again, you're right, there's a spectrum there, and I think we have to really be careful that it doesn't tip into a space where it's so overwhelming that you can't possibly move beyond it.

   7. AGAdam Grant4:18

      Well,

4. 4:19 – 9:26

   Jacinda's path to leadership

   1. AGAdam Grant4:19

      so I wanna understand from you how. Um, you became prime minister at age 37.

   2. JAJacinda Ardern4:24

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AGAdam Grant4:24

      Which makes me feel like, what am I doing with my life? [laughs]

   4. JAJacinda Ardern4:28

      [laughs]

   5. AGAdam Grant4:28

      Um, but so young to be, I, I think at the time you were the, the youngest female head of state in the world.

   6. JAJacinda Ardern4:34

      Yes. Q- Soon, soon overtaken by Sanna Marin-

   7. AGAdam Grant4:37

      Mm-hmm

   8. JAJacinda Ardern4:37

      ... but at that time, yeah.

   9. AGAdam Grant4:38

      It, I mean, it's just, it's so hard to imagine being that young-

   10. JAJacinda Ardern4:41

       Mm

   11. AGAdam Grant4:41

       ... and being in such a high position of power and status. What were the impostor thoughts and feelings like then, and, and how did you manage them?

   12. JAJacinda Ardern4:48

       Yeah, in a way they were both exacerbated and also simultaneously overcome by circumstance, because it wasn't the case that I pursued that level of higher office. In fact, you know, I was, you know, to give a little bit of background, I was the deputy leader in our party, and that, that doesn't mean that you're on, that you're necessarily next in line, it just means that I was a good loyal foot soldier who was in support of the leader. But, uh, there I was in this role. Uh, I'd only been in there since, um, March of 2017, and we were l- coming into a, another election. And we'd been in opposition for nine years when our polling really wasn't looking good. And so the latest poll came in, and my leader privately said to me, "I don't know if I can do it." I tried to encourage him to stay, um, for all the reasons [laughs] that I've discussed, but then he came to work a week later and he quit. And so in lots of ways, it did really feel like the decision flipped from being one that I proactively Could pursue or would pursue to just simply being a question of responsibility. Leadership, uh, and the responsibility, the sense of responsibility to take on something if asked can sometimes override self-doubt, and maybe that's not a bad push and pull.

   13. AGAdam Grant6:09

       Yeah, I, I think that's actually a really healthy attitude.

   14. JAJacinda Ardern6:11

       Mm.

   15. AGAdam Grant6:11

       It, it tracks with what in psychology we would distinguish between seeing leadership as an opportunity versus a responsibility.

   16. JAJacinda Ardern6:17

       Yeah. I, I am interested, though, in those circumstances, what does it mean for them leaving at a healthy point if you feel a burden of responsibility? How long does that carry through?

   17. AGAdam Grant6:28

       I think people who are, are in it for, for somewhat self-serving reasons-

   18. JAJacinda Ardern6:33

       Yeah

   19. AGAdam Grant6:33

       ... they're very eager to claim the identity and the title of leadership.

   20. JAJacinda Ardern6:37

       Mm.

   21. AGAdam Grant6:37

       And they're very hesitant to, to loosen their grip on it.

   22. JAJacinda Ardern6:40

       Yeah.

   23. AGAdam Grant6:40

       Um, and I, I think your instincts are right, that the opposite might be true for-

   24. JAJacinda Ardern6:44

       Yes

   25. AGAdam Grant6:44

       ... people who are more reluctant.

   26. JAJacinda Ardern6:45

       And certainly in political leadership, you can't really canvas widely the decision to leave because it is something that if, if it, if it's found out or heard, the decision gets taken out of your hands. So that was challenging, and the departure was a lonely decision for that reason.

   27. AGAdam Grant7:03

       Well, I wanna talk more about that.

   28. JAJacinda Ardern7:05

       Mm.

   29. AGAdam Grant7:05

       Before we get there, though-

   30. JAJacinda Ardern7:06

       I've jumped straight to leaving. [laughs]
5. 9:26 – 13:21

   The pitfalls of responsibility and empathy

   1. AGAdam Grant9:26

      So it's interesting, though, that you said the, the responsibility that you felt-

   2. JAJacinda Ardern9:30

      Yeah

   3. AGAdam Grant9:30

      ... just, it, it took over.

   4. JAJacinda Ardern9:31

      Yeah.

   5. AGAdam Grant9:32

      Because one impression I got from reading the book was that in some ways that sense of responsibility got you in trouble when you were younger.

   6. JAJacinda Ardern9:39

      [laughs] Yes.

   7. AGAdam Grant9:40

      You, the ... Uh, which is a little counterintuitive, but you, you talk about how the desire to be useful was-

   8. JAJacinda Ardern9:45

      Yeah

   9. AGAdam Grant9:45

      ... sometimes problematic.

   10. JAJacinda Ardern9:46

       Yeah, yeah.

   11. AGAdam Grant9:46

       So tell me about that-

   12. JAJacinda Ardern9:47

       Yeah

   13. AGAdam Grant9:47

       ... and how it then played into life as a new prime minister.

   14. JAJacinda Ardern9:51

       So interesting 'cause, and there's some things that you don't necessarily see the through lines on in your life until you write them down, and suddenly [laughs] you're like, "Oh, there it is." [laughs] You know, for example, out on our ... Uh, at that time it was an orchard owned by my grandparents, and I would've only been about four, and I just loved going into the, the old cool store sheds and seeing the, the way that the conveyors with all of the fruit worked and the packing house and tractors bringing the bins in and out. And I was up there trying to, you know, figure out what I could do in that little space when I found, uh, one of the machines for packing boxes, and had a little play with it and ended up slicing, um, slicing my face. I have a little scar down my nose to this, to this day. Just those little moments where you're like, yeah, I was always, always there trying to be, trying to be a bit older than I was, you know, thinking that I was being useful. And all of the things that I remember about those early conversations, being really chuffed whenever I felt like I'd done something that was beyond my age or stronger than I was meant to be. So yeah, it, it, I guess it manifested early, and not through politics.

   15. AGAdam Grant11:06

       Yeah. I mean, this is, this is something I feel like I've done a really poor job capturing in, in the work that I've done on, on givers versus takers-

   16. JAJacinda Ardern11:12

       Mm

   17. AGAdam Grant11:12

       ... where I've, I've found lots of benefits of being somebody who enjoys helping others without strings attached and-

   18. JAJacinda Ardern11:18

       Yes

   19. AGAdam Grant11:19

       ... many longterm costs of being someone who is-

   20. JAJacinda Ardern11:22

       [laughs]

   21. AGAdam Grant11:22

       ... is all about me. But there is this, this sense in which no good deed goes unpunished, and people say that the road to hell is sometimes paved with good intentions.

   22. JAJacinda Ardern11:30

       [laughs]

   23. AGAdam Grant11:31

       So how did, how did you manage that as prime minister early on?

   24. JAJacinda Ardern11:35

       You know, I think that in writing about how it feels to lead when you're driven by empathy and compassion and, and a sense of duty, you know, it meant sharing a little bit of the insight as to the toll that that takes, but there's a privilege to that as well. Even in the hardest moments, I think you never lose sight of the fact that you have that proximity to grief because of the, the role that you have. And unlike many other experiences where you feel, oh, you know, this is such a horrific thing that's happened, what can I do? Actually, suddenly you're in a place where you can do something about it. So yeah, maybe you do pay a price, but one that you're willing to pay, if that makes sense.

   25. AGAdam Grant12:20

       It does. It does. In psychology, we would say let's not talk about compassion fatigue-

   26. JAJacinda Ardern12:24

       Yeah

   27. AGAdam Grant12:24

       ... because it's not compassion that drains you, it's empathic distress.

   28. JAJacinda Ardern12:27

       Yes. Yes.

   29. AGAdam Grant12:28

       It's the, the feeling of hurting for someone else, but not being able to help.

   30. JAJacinda Ardern12:32

       Thank you for putting some language to it, because I've never been able to fully explain it. [laughs]
6. 13:21 – 17:29

   Leading with kindness

   1. AGAdam Grant13:21

      So when I think about your leadership on the world stage, um, certainly I think that that mass shooting is a visible example. I think of you being in your late 30s and pregnant.

   2. JAJacinda Ardern13:34

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AGAdam Grant13:34

      That's another, another example that probably-

   4. JAJacinda Ardern13:36

      They call that a geriatric pregnancy. [laughs] It's like ageism. [laughs]

   5. AGAdam Grant13:40

      I don't think that's a helpful framing for anyone.

   6. JAJacinda Ardern13:41

      I really... So I keep putting it out there in the hope that someone says, "Yeah, we should change that." [laughs]

   7. AGAdam Grant13:47

      [laughs] Um, how about a wise pregnancy?

   8. JAJacinda Ardern13:50

      Yeah. [laughs] That's... I said seasoned. Something.

   9. AGAdam Grant13:52

      That works. I'd love to hear you talk both about what it meant for you to lead with kindness, and then also what was it like to be welcoming a child at the same time-

   10. JAJacinda Ardern14:00

       That's a two-

   11. AGAdam Grant14:00

       ... that you're taking the helm of a country

   12. JAJacinda Ardern14:02

       ... two very, very big questions. I think when we think about these ideas of kindness, we, w- you know, we often think about the manifestation of that and policy delivery, and sure, that was a, you know, a big thing for us. But also, I, I wanted to change the way we did politics and the way that we governed, which I think is equally important. I don't think it's fair to say, "Well, we're gonna be a government of kindness, but I'm gonna engage in the most horrific political attacks with my opponents you can imagine." And so we from the outset said, "Okay, we want, I want us to be relentlessly positive," and that I wasn't going to attack my opponents on personal matters. We were going to stick to the issues. And I tried to maintain that the entire time I was in office as well. And so I want... You know, Prime Minister Anthony Albanese in Australia has spoken of this idea of conflict fatigue, and I think it's real. And I think the more that you hear just that conflict between politicians, the less you believe that politicians are focused on the things that are affecting you. So for us it was about what we did, but how we did it as well, and kindness for me was a good guiding principle in both.

   13. AGAdam Grant15:09

       So the, the other, I guess the other thing that surfaces for me is either, like, you, you get rid of the fatigue factor, or you create an adverse selection problem, where the kinds of people who enjoy conflict, who are sometimes called conflict entrepreneurs-

   14. JAJacinda Ardern15:22

       [laughs]

   15. AGAdam Grant15:22

       ... um, who are intens- intensely disagreeable, who are Machiavellian, who might be narcissistic or sociopathic, um, are the ones who are attracted to office. And-

   16. JAJacinda Ardern15:30

       Exactly

   17. AGAdam Grant15:31

       ... I don't think we want that either.

   18. JAJacinda Ardern15:32

       Exactly, and that's where this gets really interesting, when people say, "Well, the idea of, you know, compassionate or empathetic leadership can't survive." Well, what is the alternative? Uh, and I think we do want people who have humility and, and value those traits to be in politics. And, and I do think we're in a period where good people are self-excluding because they see a very particular leadership style that is not necessarily who we want in our representative politics. The flip side, however, which, you know, I think we also had to end up being mindful of, if you are within your team building a, an approach where you do wanna do things differently, how do you still allow or create an environment where people are able to bring ideas that cont- you know, might be counter to others, that you are engaging still in respectful debate? Because you do run the risk of this kind of consensus bias because you don't wanna rock the boat of your, of your friendly team environment. So that almost was what we had to be mindful of.

   19. AGAdam Grant16:33

       I love on its face the idea of, you know, not engaging in personal attacks-

   20. JAJacinda Ardern16:37

       Yeah

   21. AGAdam Grant16:37

       ... in politics. But I also see leaders on the world stage whose character needs to be attacked because they fail to stand for principles that-

   22. JAJacinda Ardern16:46

       Mm-hmm

   23. AGAdam Grant16:47

       ... I think you hold dear.

   24. JAJacinda Ardern16:48

       Yeah. Well, look-

   25. AGAdam Grant16:49

       Um, leaders who are not kind, leaders who are not humble, for example.

   26. JAJacinda Ardern16:51

       There is a place to hold that to account because you're doing it every day, and the way that's manifesting in the policy decisions someone's making, you absolutely can test that. But if I give you an example, it might be for instance that something's happened in someone's, uh, in someone's life that brings into question their personal behavior. If that was not a member of my team, then I considered that to be an issue of discipline for that team and their leadership. So I wouldn't pile in on that. That was a leadership issue for them, and I was in charge of managing my own team's conduct and behavior. So that, that was the way I would draw a distinction.

   27. AGAdam Grant17:27

       Got it. Okay, that's helpful.

   28. JAJacinda Ardern17:28

       Mm.

   29. AGAdam Grant17:28

       Okay,

7. 17:29 – 19:21

   Parenting and leadership

   1. AGAdam Grant17:29

      so now, um, pregnancy.

   2. JAJacinda Ardern17:31

      Yeah, small matter.

   3. AGAdam Grant17:32

      So [laughs] yeah.

   4. JAJacinda Ardern17:33

      [laughs]

   5. AGAdam Grant17:33

      Tiny topic, but I, I'm, I'm so curious about the, the simultaneous experience of welcoming a child into the world and feeling that responsibility-

   6. JAJacinda Ardern17:41

      Yeah

   7. AGAdam Grant17:41

      ... at the same time that you're responsible for a whole country.

   8. JAJacinda Ardern17:44

      Feels very similar. [laughs]

   9. AGAdam Grant17:46

      Does it?

   10. JAJacinda Ardern17:47

       It can do.

   11. AGAdam Grant17:47

       Does it?

   12. JAJacinda Ardern17:47

       It can do, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. In fact, I thought about this a, a, a lot, and while you, you know, it's not exactly the same thing, that push and pull of where you're meant to be and who you're meant to be with was very acute in this, in that particular role. But the timing of everything was Probably, I mean, pretty poor [laughs] on my part because whilst we were in coalition negotiations to find out would this minor party who had the balance of power, would they choose my party or would they choose the conservative party? And if they chose mine, I would become the prime minister. And we were close to the end of those negotiations when I found out I was pregnant. And of course, my immediate thought was, well, uh, this is one for the books, but also I, I can't share this because the pregnancy may not hold. Uh, and also, gosh, what will people, what will people think? You know, will they think that I wasn't prioritizing this, this role? And there was so much more to it, but I couldn't say that at the time.

   13. AGAdam Grant18:46

       Well, it won't, it won't surprise you, there's evidence that parents with young children tend to be more focused and more productive than people who are single and childless because when you have a lot on your plate, you get really good at prioritizing.

   14. JAJacinda Ardern18:57

       Well, you s- you [laughs] got that old, that old saying. But it also made me think, I remember when I had Nave, I really remember thinking sole parents are superhuman. How do people do this on their own? How do they do it on their own? And so it definitely made me think, uh, about that individual human experience in, in much greater detail.

8. 19:21 – 28:33

   Leading through COVID

   1. AGAdam Grant19:21

      So I think you, you referenced the, the need both for humility and for dissent and debate earlier.

   2. JAJacinda Ardern19:28

      Mm.

   3. AGAdam Grant19:28

      And I wanna, I wanna talk more about that.

   4. JAJacinda Ardern19:30

      Mm.

   5. AGAdam Grant19:30

      Because I think nowhere was that more relevant than in the early days of COVID. That's for me, the other iconic image of you, is like watching you on a video screen in a sweatshirt-

   6. JAJacinda Ardern19:39

      Yeah. [laughs]

   7. AGAdam Grant19:39

      ... delivering an address to a nation.

   8. JAJacinda Ardern19:41

      It's such, it's such an unfortunate association, a pandemic, but it is [laughs] what it is.

   9. AGAdam Grant19:46

      I thought it stood out as a model of, you know, both clear communication, but also caring leadership-

   10. JAJacinda Ardern19:52

       Mm

   11. AGAdam Grant19:52

       ... to, to show symbolically, "Hey, I'm, I'm in lockdown with you." When I think about the early days of COVID, I think about that as the kind of situation where I tell leaders they have to be both fast and slow at the same time.

   12. JAJacinda Ardern20:04

       Yeah.

   13. AGAdam Grant20:04

       Which is uniquely difficult, right?

   14. JAJacinda Ardern20:06

       Yeah.

   15. AGAdam Grant20:06

       Because you're making decisions that are highly consequential.

   16. JAJacinda Ardern20:09

       Yes.

   17. AGAdam Grant20:09

       They're also irreversible.

   18. JAJacinda Ardern20:11

       Yeah.

   19. AGAdam Grant20:11

       And so you have to get it right, but you also can't afford to delay.

   20. JAJacinda Ardern20:14

       No.

   21. AGAdam Grant20:15

       And so I, I imagine you felt this tremendous tension between-

   22. JAJacinda Ardern20:19

       Yeah

   23. AGAdam Grant20:19

       ... being decisive-

   24. JAJacinda Ardern20:20

       Yes

   25. AGAdam Grant20:20

       ... and also encouraging people to disagree and bring in different perspectives.

   26. JAJacinda Ardern20:24

       Yeah.

   27. AGAdam Grant20:24

       How did you manage that?

   28. JAJacinda Ardern20:25

       I think this is where some of the old hangovers of things like self-doubt, you know, or y- n- your, your way of managing that for most people is to overprepare. Just bring in as much information as you can, can. Try and become the subject expert so that you're not caught short. [laughs]

   29. AGAdam Grant20:43

       Stall, stall, stall. Yeah.

   30. JAJacinda Ardern20:44

       I wouldn't necessarily see it as a stall, but rather just ensuring that you have a level of preparedness on an issue. And what I found helpful therefore was because I had that habit, uh, it meant that when it came to decision-making, I was probably more decisive because I had done as much preparatory work as I could on understanding this virus, and also was no hesitation to bring in experts. I wanted to speak to everyone that I could. When it came to the importance of trying to build consensus as much as you could at a time that was really scary for people, transparency was key. Just being really clear, we don't have all the answers, but this is everything we have, uh, and this is our plan in an imperfect decision-making environment. And I think in a way that built trust and, you know, there's, there's some of that interesting data around, you know, trust in, in, in government institutions increasing for a period in 2020. Certainly in our case it did. But then I think the really interesting thing is it ebbed away.
9. 28:33 – 29:48

   Tall poppy syndrome

   1. AGAdam Grant28:33

      I wanna bring this back then to tall poppy syndrome, um, because I-

   2. JAJacinda Ardern28:36

      Is this a worldwide, do you-

   3. AGAdam Grant28:38

      No

   4. JAJacinda Ardern28:38

      ... understand, phrase? So it's very New Zealand. We know it very well.

   5. AGAdam Grant28:40

      Australia and New Zealand-

   6. JAJacinda Ardern28:41

      Yeah

   7. AGAdam Grant28:41

      ... is, is where I know the-

   8. JAJacinda Ardern28:42

      Yes

   9. AGAdam Grant28:42

      ... the research at least.

   10. JAJacinda Ardern28:43

       Yeah. I also appreciate this so much about New Zealand. When you are in politics, it's very much the you are there to serve. You are there to do a job on behalf of others, and it's a privilege. Uh, and at the same time, whilst you have that role, don't, don't come above your station. Most New Zealanders will remember a, an MP who had a few other things going on, but actually the trigger for his resignation was that in a, a restaurant once, he got into some kind of altercation, and he responded, "Don't you know who I am?" Oh, you do not.

   11. AGAdam Grant29:17

       How dare you?

   12. JAJacinda Ardern29:19

       You absolutely do not talk like that in New Zealand. [laughs] And I, I appreciate that New Zealanders have that egalitarian sense that they expect humility. The flip side of that is this idea of if New Zealanders do well or if they're achieving, we will be really proud of them, but there's an expectation that you, that, that you don't ever get too big for your boots, and I guess that's where the tall poppy comes in.

   13. AGAdam Grant29:46

       Yeah, very much so. Well, okay, so

10. 29:48 – 32:33

    Stepping down

    1. AGAdam Grant29:48

       you were eager to talk about stepping down.

    2. JAJacinda Ardern29:50

       Yes.

    3. AGAdam Grant29:51

       [laughs]

    4. JAJacinda Ardern29:51

       Yes.

    5. AGAdam Grant29:52

       The decision to, the, the choice to resign.

    6. JAJacinda Ardern29:52

       We're gonna fast-forward here. 12 months has passed. 12 months has passed. [laughs]

    7. AGAdam Grant29:55

       [laughs]

    8. JAJacinda Ardern29:55

       It's kind of important for me. It's not like COVID leave. There was, there was, there was time.

    9. AGAdam Grant30:00

       Yeah, no, a lot of time.

    10. JAJacinda Ardern30:01

        Yeah.

    11. AGAdam Grant30:01

        How did you decide- To step down and when to step down.

    12. JAJacinda Ardern30:06

        I had a series of kind of micro moments, and there wasn't just this one thing for me. I gave my reasoning, my rationale, my thinking when I left, you know, that actually I could... I didn't have enough in the tank. I knew enough of disaster to know what you need to have in reserve. It wasn't the case that I was burnt out, you know, I wasn't in the fetal position in the corner, but I felt that same weight of responsibility to make sure that at any given moment I could step up a little bit further, and that was waning after five years, and, and after 15 years in politics generally. And so I just shared the micro moments going through that decision-making. No one particularly supported my decision, so it, it did feel lonely, um, but it still felt like the right one for me. I also talk a little bit about how I, I did feel that there was a heightened sentiment, and some of this probably in the aftermath of COVID. Naturally, if you lead through something like that, you're gonna carry some of the baggage of that, and I wanted to bring the temperature down. And I thought perhaps if I sat at the center, my departure might do that, and that would be for the good of politics, it would be for the good of my party, it would be for the good of holding on to so many of the important things I felt we'd made progress on.

    13. AGAdam Grant31:24

        So it was a... It sounds like in some ways it was a choice to be a lightning rod.

    14. JAJacinda Ardern31:27

        Yeah, I kind of describe it as being, you know, as you say, a flash point, maybe just, uh, being unfortunately just symbolically representing a really hard time that everyone went through. I remember during COVID, uh, because we by and large had a strategy that we lived without COVID, it meant that if we had one case, if we could not figure out where that case had come from, we might have to either lock down a particular part of the country, or if it was particularly worrying, the whole country for short periods of time. And I started to worry that when people saw me unexpectedly arrive on a podium, that I would suddenly become this trigger.

    15. AGAdam Grant32:04

        Oh.

    16. JAJacinda Ardern32:05

        And even going through airport security, if they saw a particular kind of rush of us moving through to get to Wellington, I thought, "Oh, people are gonna know." And I hated representing that for people. It was just part of, par for the course. But, you know, there's a long... Sure, there's probably a long-term effect for that. Um, and so yeah, I, I thought that was part of my thinking. Not in to- not in total, but it was part of my thinking.

11. 32:33 – 34:40

    Lightning round

    1. AGAdam Grant32:33

       All right, so let's do a lightning round if you're ready for it.

    2. JAJacinda Ardern32:35

       Oh, I hate those. [laughs]

    3. AGAdam Grant32:37

       You're not, you're not gonna hate this one.

    4. JAJacinda Ardern32:38

       Okay.

    5. AGAdam Grant32:38

       We'll try. Who is your dream dinner party guest that you haven't met?

    6. JAJacinda Ardern32:43

       Can they be dead?

    7. AGAdam Grant32:44

       Sure.

    8. JAJacinda Ardern32:44

       Ernest Shackleton.

    9. AGAdam Grant32:45

       Okay, gonna be hard to arrange that one.

    10. JAJacinda Ardern32:47

        Yeah, I know. But still, you asked for the dream guest, so there it is. [laughs]

    11. AGAdam Grant32:50

        I'll take it. What's the worst leadership advice you see given regularly?

    12. JAJacinda Ardern32:54

        Ooh. I see an absence of something. I think we should encourage sleep more because people martyr themselves, especially in leadership.

    13. AGAdam Grant33:03

        Yeah.

    14. JAJacinda Ardern33:03

        Yeah.

    15. AGAdam Grant33:03

        Best advice for breaking a glass ceiling?

    16. JAJacinda Ardern33:06

        Just think about the person that's following. Just gives you an extra motivation. You're carving a path for someone.

    17. AGAdam Grant33:12

        Trailblazing.

    18. JAJacinda Ardern33:13

        Trailblazing. Yep.

    19. AGAdam Grant33:15

        What's something you changed your mind about recently?

    20. JAJacinda Ardern33:18

        Ooh, I change my mind all the time. Um, oof. Well, I changed my mind about writing a book. I was adamant, adamant I wasn't going to, and then I did, so...

    21. AGAdam Grant33:32

        You, you seem to end up doing a lot of the things you-

    22. JAJacinda Ardern33:35

        Yeah, there's a pattern [laughs]

    23. AGAdam Grant33:35

        ... really don't want to do.

    24. JAJacinda Ardern33:36

        There's a pattern.

    25. AGAdam Grant33:37

        And then what's a question you have for me?

    26. JAJacinda Ardern33:39

        What do you see most absent in political leadership?

    27. AGAdam Grant33:42

        Oh my gosh, how many hours do you have?

    28. JAJacinda Ardern33:43

        [laughs]

    29. AGAdam Grant33:44

        Like, the list, the list is never ending. I mean, it's, it's a deficit... It's a series of deficits of character.

    30. JAJacinda Ardern33:48

        Yeah.
12. 34:40 – 37:57

    Driving positive change through optimism

    1. AGAdam Grant34:40

       when you stepped down on this very point, you said you still believed that politics was a place where it was possible to drive positive change.

    2. JAJacinda Ardern34:48

       Yeah.

    3. AGAdam Grant34:48

       Do you still think that now?

    4. JAJacinda Ardern34:49

       I do. Yep, I do. And, and what I hope is that people don't change their expectation of that as well because... You know, and I, I speak to this a bit because for me it's really important that in these moments people maintain their own optimism but also their expectation because the moment we have indifference, that is, that is a, that is a hall pass to politicians. So, you know, to anyone, if you have a particular expectation around the way that you believe politics should be done and, you know, what should be delivered, don't let that standard drop. If anything, raise it.

    5. AGAdam Grant35:24

       What is it that gives you that sense of confidence and hope?

    6. JAJacinda Ardern35:28

       Just exposure. Exposure to people. You know, proximity, uh, to young people. You know, inherently we know that, uh, young people tend to be more cynical, uh, in their youth. But in amongst that cynicism I still see an optimism, "Well, you know, I'm gonna do X, Y, and Z in spite of the leadership I see around me." And so that's a cause, that's cause for hope.

    7. AGAdam Grant35:53

       Well, the first time we met a few months ago, you said something that really stuck with me. You said, "Optimism is an act of courage."

    8. JAJacinda Ardern35:59

       Yes. Yes.

    9. AGAdam Grant36:00

       What do you mean by that?

    10. JAJacinda Ardern36:01

        So, um, I, I have long had a obsession with Antarctic exploration, and Ernest Shackleton, and on one of the such occasion, found himself stranded in Antarctica, and keeping in mind, this is during the period of the First World War, so technology and communications weren't great, and here he is suddenly responsible for his team on the ice when his ship has sunk. No one knows that they're stranded, and his job is their survival. And the fact that during that period he was also saw that survival was dependent on their mindset, and he was the one that said, "Optimism is true moral courage." So, you know, in my mind, that's, that actually undercuts this sentiment at least that you have sometime that hope or optimism is naive. It is a choice, um, and not only is a choice, uh, it is, it, it implies actually something that is required in difficult circumstances, in trying circumstances, in order to succeed.

    11. AGAdam Grant37:06

        Okay, last question for you to take us full circle. We talked about empathy earlier, and you referenced being somewhat thin-skinned.

    12. JAJacinda Ardern37:14

        Yeah.

    13. AGAdam Grant37:15

        And you said you don't want a thicker skin.

    14. JAJacinda Ardern37:17

        No.

    15. AGAdam Grant37:18

        Why don't you want one?

    16. JAJacinda Ardern37:19

        Because really early on I learned that thicker skin might mean losing my empathy. I'd rather have empathy because I think it's, you know, that, that's something as policy makers and decision makers makes us better at our job. And so if the price I pay is that sometimes the job hurts a little, so be it.

    17. AGAdam Grant37:36

        Sometimes the people who feel things the most deeply are the ones who care the most deeply.

    18. JAJacinda Ardern37:40

        And don't we want those people in leadership?

    19. AGAdam Grant37:42

        I know I certainly do.

    20. JAJacinda Ardern37:44

        Yeah.

    21. AGAdam Grant37:44

        Jacinda, thank you so much for joining us.

    22. JAJacinda Ardern37:45

        Thank you. [upbeat music]

Episode duration: 38:06