How to Get Unstuck, Do “The Work,” Take Radical Responsibility, and Reduce Drama in Your Life

1. 0:00 – 0:15

   Intro

   1. TFTim Ferriss0:00

      [upbeat music]

2. 0:15 – 6:08

   Diana's Path: From Scrapbooking Mom to Conscious Leadership

   1. TFTim Ferriss0:15

      Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss, and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job to interview world-class performers from all different fields, all different stripes, to tease out the frameworks, the habits, routines, favorite books, all the goodies that you can apply, test in your own lives. My guest today, I'm very excited about Diana Chapman, C-H-A-P-M-A-N. Diana is a co-founder of the Conscious Leadership Group and a co-author of the book The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership, which I am rereading right now, it just so happens. Her passion is to help organizational leaders and their teams eliminate drama in the workplace and beyond. She's worked with more than 1,000 CEOs and is a well-respected facilitator for the Young Presidents Organization, YPO, working with their forums and chapters worldwide. She's been a speaker at TEDx, Mindful Leadership Summit, Wisdom 2.0, Stanford Graduate School of Business, and many more. When Diana is not with her clients, she can often be found gardening at her suburban homestead in the Santa Cruz Mountains of California. Sounds nice, doesn't it? She [laughs] lives there with her husband of more than 30 years. You can find her online at conscious.is. On Twitter, the handle is @consciouslg. Facebook, Conscious Leadership Group. And on YouTube, Conscious is Now. And there are so many different directions I could go, but first, Diana, welcome to the show. So nice to see you.

   2. DCDiana Chapman1:39

      Oh, thank you so much. I'm really happy to be here.

   3. TFTim Ferriss1:43

      So I thought I would just establish some bonafides right off the bat, and then we're gonna do a little chronological shuffling. So first, I want to read a quote from the team portion of the website. So under your name at conscious.is, there's a quote from Dustin Moskovitz. Now, for those who don't know who Dustin is, Dustin is co-founder of Asana. Prior to that, he was co-founder of Facebook. In 2011, he was, at least at the time, the youngest self-made billionaire in the history of, uh, the planet, as far as I know. And here's the quote. Quote, "Working with Diana has dramatically changed the way I react to challenges and stress in my life, preserving my energy to direct towards more constructive pursuits. As a coach, she has a gift for guiding me through introspection on the stories I create about events and people in a structured way that inevitably leads to perspective shifts. We can't control the fact that bad things are gonna happen, but how we react to those events is what really matters and that we can learn to control. When we have the right attitude and resourcing, adversity becomes strictly an opportunity to learn and grow." Okay. So this is the kinda quote that a lot of folks would, would kill for, maybe die for, certainly amputate a few fingers for. Now, I, before we dig into all sorts of juicy bits that we could pull out of that quote as a jumping-off point, I wanna go back to 1997. So I [laughs] did not expect to find this. I didn't expect to find anything sp- in particular, but this is what I found. This is on critio.com. "In 1997, Diana Chapman was a stay-at-home mom teaching scrapbooking in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Quote, 'As mainstream a life as they come,' end quote, she says." Uh, I didn't know any of this. So number one, you can't believe everything you read on the internet, so is this true? And then assuming some aspect of it is true, could you tell us about the gift from your brother-in-law around that time?

   4. DCDiana Chapman3:47

      Yeah, so it is true. I was the quintessential stay-at-home mom, all things being with my kids, being part of the school, you know, head of the PTA, all that good stuff. And I was, though, very interested in personal development, spirituality, human consciousness. That was always in the background. But I was very devoted to my children. [laughs] I was teaching scrapbooking to other moms. I mean, I was so cute. I was really cute.

   5. TFTim Ferriss4:16

      [laughs]

   6. DCDiana Chapman4:17

      And my brother-in-law was a top CEO in the country, and he was very, very devoted to personal development, and he was a connoisseur of finding great coaches. And I think the truth was that he and my sister-in-law were concerned about my marriage and wondered-

   7. TFTim Ferriss4:35

      Mm-hmm

   8. DCDiana Chapman4:35

      ... if we were gonna make it. And so they recommended that we go out to California and take a training with Gay and Kathlyn Hendricks of the Hendricks Institute. Actually, they gave us five grand. He said, "You can do whatever you want with the money, but I'm gonna recommend you go out to California." So I joyfully could not wait to go. Uh, I didn't know anything about them, but he said, you know, "They're the best," so off we went and it was a profoundly life-changing week. And I thought to myself, "Why am I just learning these tools? And I am gonna devote the rest of my life, um, making sure people get access to them," and that's what I've done.

   9. TFTim Ferriss5:14

      What did you feel or experience, or what changes did you observe that led you to have such a strong reaction?

   10. DCDiana Chapman5:24

       First of all, I learned about this thing called the Drama Triangle-

   11. TFTim Ferriss5:29

       Hmm

   12. DCDiana Chapman5:29

       ... and which many people out there may have heard about. But I realized my whole life is running around on this Drama Triangle, and the Drama Triangle was created by Stephen Karpman back in the '70s, and he defined ways in which human beings get caught in victimhood that, uh, create reactivity. And I realized I'm on the triangle most of the time. And, and there is a big cost to me and my people when I'm on the Drama Triangle. And so that was the wake-up call for me, and then I just spent every day since looking for all the tools I can for how to keep myself out of that triangle as much as possible.

3. 6:08 – 12:06

   The Drama Triangle: Victim, Villain, and Hero

   1. TFTim Ferriss6:08

      Since you mentioned it, let's just jump right into the Drama Triangle. Could you give us an overview of what it is and how you might use it?

   2. DCDiana Chapman6:19

      Okay. So Cartman says, "Many of us got trained to live in a state of victimhood," and there are three unique flavors of victimhood in the Drama Triangle. We call them bases. So the first base is the pure victim, and the pure victim, you know, it's so hard here. I'm trying. I don't know. It's just any kind of a, "Oh, help," you know? It's got this-

   3. TFTim Ferriss6:42

      [laughs]

   4. DCDiana Chapman6:42

      ... very disempowered feeling and it's somehow like they've got the power. Somebody else has it, not me, and I'm very at the effect of things. So I could be at the effect of my bank account, at the effect of this email that just came in, at the effect of the traffic, at the effect of the new policy on going back to work, at the effect of COVID. All those things are forms of being a victim. Then the next role in the Drama Triangle is the villain, and the villain's job is to blame. So I can blame me. God, I should have known that, or I should have been more prepared, or any should have over here on me, or I'm not smart enough, or I can't count on myself. That's all villaining toward myself. Or we can villain toward another. You know, you, you're the reason why I'm not having as much fun as I could be having. Or we could be a villain to a group of people, which is very popular in our culture. So we all know who's screwing it up for the rest of us, you know? It's that group over there, and everybody's pointing to particular groups who are the bad guys. So villain's very popular because it gets our adrenaline really kicking in.

   5. TFTim Ferriss7:47

      I think it's actually in the terms of service on Twitter that you have to play that role-

   6. DCDiana Chapman7:51

      [laughs]

   7. TFTim Ferriss7:51

      ... when you use the service. Anyways, just a side note. Please- [laughs]

   8. DCDiana Chapman7:55

      Right. Right. Who's, who's, who's screwing it up? Who's wrong?

   9. TFTim Ferriss7:58

      [laughs]

   10. DCDiana Chapman7:59

       Yeah, you don't know. You're wrong, I'm right. And then the last role in the Drama Triangle is the hero. It's also called the reliever or the rescuer, and the hero's job is to seek temporary relief. So, oh, my God, I had such a hard day today at work. Let me come home. I'm gonna drink my alcohol, or go my, do my gaming, or get lost in Netflix, or whatever I'm gonna do to give myself some temporary relief and it works. But I gotta do it again tomorrow 'cause tomorrow I'm gonna come home, potentially burn out again, then I'm gonna have to do the same pattern. So heroing is temporary relief over and over again. So I can hero myself. I could hero another. You know, "Oh, you look like you're struggling at work and, um, let me take over some of your work that you're doing," and I might do that, I could do that from a place of real presence, but when I'm in hero doing it, I'm actually creating some codependence where I keep needing you to not be able to handle your work so I can keep helping, and then I'll resent you over time.

   11. TFTim Ferriss8:59

       Mm.

   12. DCDiana Chapman8:59

       And then we can hero them. You know, there's lots of philanthropies, especially in the past, they're getting better at this now, where we just throw a bunch of money at a population and then next year they have all the same issues, and they need more money, and nothing ever really changes. So the key thing is temporary relief. So we all know the story about you can give the man a fish every night or you could teach him to fish for himself. So the hero gives the man the fish night after night after night.

   13. TFTim Ferriss9:23

       Mm-hmm.

   14. DCDiana Chapman9:23

       And if you're off the Drama Triangle, you shift to a place where you see people as empowered and the hero asks good questions to help people get more effective around them.

   15. TFTim Ferriss9:35

       So my, my next question, I wanna share an observation from my rereading of the book, a- and then the, the next question, just to plant the seed, is I'm gonna ask you why it's called the Drama Triangle, what drama actually means here. But in my reread, uh, which I'm in the middle of right now, of The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership, which was recommended to me by Dustin, uh, and I think it was also recommended in my last book, in Tribe of Mentors, by Dustin, and there's a section that I needed to reread which was related to the Drama Triangle and it pointed out that the villain could take the form of someone in a meeting who, to try to resolve conflict, or maybe not resolve, to try to minimize conflict, always takes the blame. Like, eventually at the end of the meeting they just say, "You know what? It's my fault. I should have done this, this, this, this, and this." And it's easy, at least for me, to conflate radical responsibility with overly blaming myself for everything, and I, I don't actually have a great way to approach navigating discerning those two for me, if that makes any sense. Uh-

   16. DCDiana Chapman10:55

       Yeah

   17. TFTim Ferriss10:55

       ... so, so we could, we could [laughs] try to unpack that or we could jump to why it's called the Drama Triangle, but I'll let you choose the direction.

   18. DCDiana Chapman11:03

       Well, let me do both. So the reason why it's tr- called the Drama Triangle is because the whole triangle is set up for a na, na, na, you know? It's I'm right, you're wrong. You're to blame or I'm to blame. It's, it's not asking everybody to really take 100% responsibility for how they're co-creating experiences. So if I'm in the Drama Triangle, the villain, if I'm taking on I'm more responsible, what happens is I'll say, "Oh, I'm here at the meeting you guys, and look, it's my fault. I'll take some of your responsibility and take it all on me." And so there is a place to say, "Hey, I have a part in how I've co-created this. Let me tell you my part." That would be me taking my 100%, and then I would also know that everybody else has a part to play too, so I'm not taking on their responsibility as well. That's the difference between a villain and somebody who's, who's just simply acknowledging, "I have a role to play here."

   19. TFTim Ferriss12:03

       Got it. Thank you.

4. 12:06 – 15:30

   Body Intelligence and the Whole-Body Yes

   1. TFTim Ferriss12:06

      So we were chatting before we started recording, and you and I have, have spoken quite a few times before. We've met before, spent time together, and you asked me why- I invited you on to the podcast and there are a number of answers I gave. One of them was related to kinesthetic awareness or what our mutual friend and your business partner, Jim Detmer, have called, at least in his notes to me for this conversation [laughs] this may be your term for all I know, BQ, so like IQ, EQ, but body intelligence. And I feel like you're very well-calibrated for this. And when we spoke maybe a year and a half ago, two years ago, I was working on this, this No book, you might recall. And then as I kept working on it and kept working on it, I kept coming up with great reasons to say no to the entire book, which was, uh, very meta, and I [laughs] ended up stopping. But we spoke a lot about the whole-body yes, and I would love to maybe use that as a, as a wedge to start the conversation because I found this so incredibly helpful when I am certainly prone to over-intellectualizing everything into some extremely complicated matrix or spreadsheet or God knows what. So, uh, could you lead us into that in whatever way makes sense?

   2. DCDiana Chapman13:34

      Sure. The idea is that we have these different centers of intelligence. So we have our head, our heart, our gut, and IQ, EQ, BQ are some of the ways we might be describing those things these days. So body intelligence is a recognition that I have an instinctual awareness that is known by my sensations, known by how the body feels, and that there's a lot actually there that if we start to drop into the body and pay attention, it's, it's got a lot of guidance for us, as does our emotions, as does our intellect. And so I do have a ton of access to my body intelligence. I think it's what I lead with in my own having, getting clarity about which directions to go in my life and, and I've put a lot of attention on it, so it's very palpable to me. My body screams often, you know, "No, don't do that," even though my intellect might ha- have an understanding of why.

   3. TFTim Ferriss14:40

      Hmm. So let's, if you wouldn't mind, walk people through how they might understand and use the whole-body yes, uh, because for me, when something is screaming, I'm decent at paying attention, right? But it's not always a scream, right?

   4. DCDiana Chapman14:57

      No.

   5. TFTim Ferriss14:57

      Oftentimes it is a little more nuanced. So could you walk people through the whole-body yes and what the, the sort of flight checklist looks like?

   6. DCDiana Chapman15:09

      Yeah. Well, I could have people, if we wanted to, go through an experience of starting to feel what their whole-body yes and nos feels like.

   7. TFTim Ferriss15:17

      Great.

   8. DCDiana Chapman15:18

      Um-

   9. TFTim Ferriss15:18

      Yeah, let's do that. Let's do that.

   10. DCDiana Chapman15:18

       Should we do that? It's very experiential, so it'll take about 10 minutes and I'll have people, if they're listening, I'd recommend they close their eyes.

   11. TFTim Ferriss15:27

       Wonderful.

   12. DCDiana Chapman15:27

       Does that work?

   13. TFTim Ferriss15:27

       We have all the time in the world.

   14. DCDiana Chapman15:28

       [laughs]

   15. TFTim Ferriss15:28

       This isn't, uh, morning television. [laughs]

5. 15:30 – 26:20

   Guided Exercise: Mapping Yes, No, and Subtle No

   1. DCDiana Chapman15:30

      Okay. So the idea is that your body knows when there's a no, when there's a yes, and when there's a, what I'm gonna call a subtle no, and we say anything other than a whole-body yes is a no. And to your point, it's easy to hear those screaming nos, but not so easy to hear the subtle no. For example, someone contacted our organization the other day and he wanted to talk, and it wasn't clear to me whether he was trying to sell us something or whether he genuinely had clients that he wanted to connect us with. And even in my... I had suspicions that it wasn't as, uh, clean as he was suggesting, and I asked for clarification, and his clarification still, I couldn't really tell, but my body did know. Eh. I felt this flat feeling in my body when I thought about having the call. And unfortunately, my head said, "Well, maybe you're not sure, so let's have the call." And indeed, it was a sales call and it was not a good use of my time, and I quickly hung up. But I, that was a time in which I skipped over my no because it was very subtle and my intellect started to get worried like, "What if I'm missing something?" And you know, what if you don't know? So I use this all the time, and I'm still learning, [laughs] as I did just last week, to pay attention to the intelligences that are outside of just my intellect. And so for you all, if you wanna learn more about this, what I'd like you to do is close your eyes and I'd like you to bring to mind an experience from the past that was deeply valuable to you. It was something that, uh, was nurturing. It was something you would gratefully repeat that scene again. It could be time when you were celebrated. It could be a time when you were in a highly creative state that made something valuable. It could be, uh, a time when you were in nature feeling deeply centered. And so I'd like you to go back into that scene as best you can and see the images of that scene and hear the sounds. And as you're in that scene, I want you to start to pay attention to the body and see if you can notice just simply how the body is vibrating right now. When you imagine yourself in that scene, seeing those images, hearing the sounds, how does your body vibrate? Is there a particular direction in which energy is flowing through the body? Now, some of you might go, "Diane, I'm not feeling anything here." That's fine. Just imagine if you were feeling something. Let it be okay that it, it might feel like pretend just for now. Is there a certain temperature that you notice in the body? For some people, they might feel very specific sensations. It might feel like shapes inside the body. And some people might be auditory and hear tones or see visuals in their mind's eye. What you're doing here is getting a map of what does a whole-body yes feel like? And just strolling around inside of the body, feeling what you're feeling. No right or wrong answers here. And everybody's so unique. We all have our own different ways we feel it. For me, my body gets warm. There's a uprising of energy. It flows up for me. There's a push. There's a f- push in the flow for me. But yours will be what it is. And so then I'd like you to take one last, like a memory, take a memory shot of this so you can remember what this feels like. And then I'd like you to shake it off and let it go. And then I want you to think of a scene in the past that you don't wanna repeat. And I don't recommend finding something traumatizing. Find something that you really didn't feel like was a good use of your time, didn't serve you, you don't wanna repeat it ever again, or you prefer not to. See if you can bring that image to mind. And again, see the visuals of that memory and hear the sounds. And I want you to notice what happens now in the body. Is there a different way the body's vibrating? How is the direction of energy flowing or not flowing in this version? Is there a difference in temperature? Any other significant sensations or shapes you feel in or on the body? And again, tones in the ears or visuals in your mind's eye may also be included. And you're getting a map for what no. This is a big no. Uh-uh, I don't want, I don't want this. I don't think this is gonna serve me. Just mapping the territory in the body for what does this feel like? And take one last picture of that and shake that one off. And then we've got one more to do, and this is the subtle no. This is similar to what I was just describing earlier of taking a meeting. You know, it didn't kill me to take the meeting. It didn't hurt. I lasted 10 minutes, and I got off the phone. But it wasn't a yes. It wasn't an alive experience for me. So this is called a subtle no. So I want you to think back. Everybody's got, in the last two to four weeks, something that's happened in which it was a eh. It wasn't bad, wasn't good, eh. See if you can come back and see that scene in your mind's eye and hear those sounds. And you're gonna check and see, what's a subtle no feel like for you? How do you experience that scene? What do you notice in the body? How does it vibrate here? How does energy flow or not flow? Is there a difference in temperature? What parts of the body light up? Sensations and tones or visuals as well. And trying on here, and again, if you don't notice much, that's okay. Just imagine if you did notice, what would you notice? And this is your map for what a subtle no feels like. And you wanna remember this feeling so that the next time somebody says, "Hey, you wanna go out to lunch," or, "Could you meet me to talk about ABC?" That you, if you feel this, likely it's an invitation for you to try no. And so you can shake that one off, and then we'll bring our attention back to the ongoing conversation. How was that for you, Tim?

   2. TFTim Ferriss23:20

      It was a great exercise. It's been a long time since I've done an inventory like that, and I took some notes, and, uh, I, I'll share a few things just in case this helps other people. I noticed that all three had different breathing patterns. The breathing was of a very different cadence and feeling.

   3. DCDiana Chapman23:43

      Nice.

   4. TFTim Ferriss23:44

      So that seemed to be of a very clear variable-

   5. DCDiana Chapman23:49

      Mm-hmm

   6. TFTim Ferriss23:50

      ... across the three. And just to give an example of the clear no, the, the strong no was sort of frontal head tension, chest tightness, feeling hot, none of which exist in the yes state, right? As, as an example.

   7. DCDiana Chapman24:08

      Uh-huh.

   8. TFTim Ferriss24:08

      And then I thought of this subtle no, which I, I don't think I've spent much time on before, which is hilarious because, of course, it's probably where I need to spend the most time is assessing that. [laughs] And I thought of this experience recently. It was the first example that came to mind because [laughs] I really try not to say yes to things, but sometimes you say yes to things that seem like a yes, and then you get into the experience and it's not a yes, right? [laughs]

   9. DCDiana Chapman24:36

      Right.

   10. TFTim Ferriss24:36

       The bill of lading was deceptive. And I ended up at this dinner that was kind of play fancy. I didn't expect it to be play fancy, but it was an expensive dinner, and it just was not enjoyable. The food wasn't great, and I didn't wanna be there. And I was thinking of this experience, and I noticed that in contrast to the strong yes and the strong no, both of which have a certain degree of focus, I, in the subtle no, have a very, I wrote down shifty energy and fidgety.

   11. DCDiana Chapman25:13

       Mm-hmm.

   12. TFTim Ferriss25:14

       Just, like, feeling unsettled.

   13. DCDiana Chapman25:16

       Uh-huh.

   14. TFTim Ferriss25:17

       And that then, I suppose, becomes your sort of landmark, right? Off in the distance where you can orient yourself with respect to decision-making or continuing or not continuing with something. So I found this very helpful, and I should also just mention that this has historically been a, what would we call it? A development opportunity, uh, AKA weakness, [laughs] growth opportunity/massive Achilles heel. This body awareness, I think that we could, we could spend a lot of time on it. We don't need to, but just lear- I learned to dissociate very effectively really early on in my life for a lot of reasons. And so it's getting reacquainted with feeling-

   15. DCDiana Chapman26:05

       Yeah

   16. TFTim Ferriss26:06

       ... has been a long process. And thank you for that. I found that very helpful. And, and could you help us connect this to how people would use this inventory?

6. 26:20 – 30:19

   Using the Inventory in Daily Decisions

   1. DCDiana Chapman26:20

      So I'd recommend starting out using it in really simple ways. So start with looking at a menu, and as you're looking at the menu, just notice, like, does that fidgety come in when you look at this sandwich, you know, versus this sandwich? And see if you can start to see what yes feels like. Or you're driving back home and you've got a couple of different routes to take home. You know, try on, "Okay, I'm gonna go this way," and notice what happens in the body versus I go this way. Make this a practice for things that don't have a lot of meaning, that, you know, it's not a big deal. You can also do it with time. Let's say you're thinking about gathering up with a group of friends and they say, "What time?" Try on like, "Okay, well, what if we met at 5:00?" And just notice what happens in the body when I try 5:00 and then 5:30 and 6:00 and 6:30, and just see if you've got, like, a place where your body starts to hum. Like, "Oh, wow, 6:30, that's where it really hit." And then let's, let's choose 6:30. So that's a way to, to do it. And then what you'll notice is, at least for me, I really liked the results I kept creating in these simpler options, and then I just kept using it more and more with more important decisions. And then now, you know, the biggest decisions are ... This is something I choose regularly. I, I've learned to trust it so that ... You know, I had a client who I thought was in trouble in another country, and I contacted the family and said, "I think you need to go help this person." And, you know, they're like, "You want us to leave and go, go check on this family member?" [laughs] And I said, "My body was shaking with clarity about it." My head was like, "I, I don't know. I'm not... I couldn't tell you for sure," but my body knew. And they, they went, and it turned out it was a really, could have been a life-saving moment that they went. And intellectually, I had some data, but my body was the one that really guided me to be aggressive in getting that person support.

   2. TFTim Ferriss28:17

      Hmm. Yeah, this, this has been, uh, really impactful for me, and it seems so simple, and on some levels it is, but I mean, very often it's the simple, valuable things that we neglect perhaps because we think they are simplistic, but that's not the same thing. And, uh, I think that it's common also for people who are very head-centered, intellect-focused, who have been rewarded for that, to just end up being a hammer looking for nails, basically. And I had a lot of trouble identifying what yes felt like, and I still do, if I'm being honest.

   3. DCDiana Chapman28:59

      Okay.

   4. TFTim Ferriss28:59

      So, I mean, there are times when it's super obvious, when I'm just, like, the, the yes in all caps and, like, marquee lights and neon. Yes. Okay, fine. Then I [laughs] I... When it bashes me over the head with, like, awesomeness, I know what that feels like. But if it's, in some cases, a meeting or an investment or a person or a dinner with certain people, it's hard for me to identify what a full body yes feels like, but I know what it doesn't feel like. If I go from, like, head to chest to gut, if there's any tension in one of those three, it's a no.

   5. DCDiana Chapman29:36

      Good. Then, then I would say your yes is a void of those sensations.

   6. TFTim Ferriss29:41

      Right.

   7. DCDiana Chapman29:42

      So let that be what it is. Let yourself go, "That is a whole-body yes. My whole-body yes is a void of those no sensations."

   8. TFTim Ferriss29:50

      Hmm.

   9. DCDiana Chapman29:51

      And that's enough. Don't-

   10. TFTim Ferriss29:52

       Yeah

   11. DCDiana Chapman29:52

       ... you don't need to make it any more than that.

   12. TFTim Ferriss29:55

       Yeah. Yeah, that's true.

   13. DCDiana Chapman29:56

       And it makes sense to me that you might not have the whole light up, you know? Some people do have this zing, you know, that they feel is a yes, but some people don't. And so-

   14. TFTim Ferriss30:07

       Yeah

   15. DCDiana Chapman30:07

       ... just trust your own version of it, so you'll just know, oh, my yes is, it just is, without the-

   16. TFTim Ferriss30:14

       Mm-hmm

   17. DCDiana Chapman30:14

       ... reactive patterns I notice in my body when the no is here.

   18. TFTim Ferriss30:19

       Hmm.

7. 30:19 – 35:58

   Cultivating Play, Pleasure, and Aliveness

   1. TFTim Ferriss30:19

      Well, let's, let's use that as a segue a- and the fact that I, I don't have the zing. I'm not sure that the fact I don't have this, uh, zing, and I do have it when it's, a- again, sort of an avalanche of- Sort of spectacular goodness. Uh, but otherwise, my yes response can be very muted. I, I do think that I've trained myself sometimes in the name of stoicism, I think often in the hope to protect myself from disappointment to not celebrate. And, and I do think that premature celebration of huge business deals and stuff can bite you in the ass, and that it's a good idea to temper expectations. At the same time, there's a cost. There's a very real cost to training yourself not to celebrate. And one of the notes that Jim, as in Jim Detmer, for people who are listening, sent to me, I asked him what your superpowers were, and he gave me a number of them. And one was play as a way to live life, increase learnings, deepen relationships, and lead organizations. Diana is the best of anyone I have ever met at living a life of play and inviting others to play along. So for those who don't know Jim, Jim would not say something like this lightly. [laughs] So could you please... This is, this is something that I want to cultivate in myself, and I'm, I really am not sure of how to go about it. So I would love to explore this. And you can take that anywhere you would like.

   2. DCDiana Chapman31:59

      Okay. Well, when you were talking earlier about not sure you know about that yes, you think maybe you'd like to have more of that, one thing I would say is I think yeses are about igniting our creative energy, and our creative energy is very connected to our sexual energy.

   3. TFTim Ferriss32:16

      Hmm.

   4. DCDiana Chapman32:16

      And so for me, a lot of yes, uh, yes feels very sexual. I feel turned on. And so I think there are a lot of people who put that away for good reasons along the way. And so one of the things that I think is important is for people to start coming back and tuning back into letting themselves be a sexual being, letting themselves have sensations that feel igniting. And, and that doesn't have to mean that you, you know, wanna go have sex or doing... They're, they're very different things. I know a lot of people are having sex without sexual feelings. [laughs] So they're, they're separate. But there's a... I wanna invite people to feel how good you can feel in the body.

   5. TFTim Ferriss32:59

      How do you do that? I know that sounds silly, but it's like how do you foster/allow that, right? Because I'm not, I'm not consciously... I don't have any Catholic guilt or anything that leads me to consciously throttle that, right? There, I don't have a voice in my head that says that's not okay. I feel like it's more, if it exists in me, it's more subconscious.

   6. DCDiana Chapman33:24

      Mm-hmm. Well, just in general, 'cause just see if you can find one place in the body that feels pleasurable. Doesn't have to necessarily be named sexual, but just where's the pleasure in the body? And it could just be a tiny little spot, or you could feel something. Like, for me right now, there's like a tickle in my chest. I feel some, um, bubbly kinda champagne bubbles coming up through my spine. Feels like it's coming up through, floating out of the top of my head. I feel some, um, warmth in my feet. It's pleasurable. And so it's just starting to put your attention on pleasure itself.

   7. TFTim Ferriss34:04

      Hmm.

   8. DCDiana Chapman34:04

      And then keep attending to it. You know, keep giving your attention to it, and then it often keeps, it starts spreading around. And then all of a sudden there's this really wonderful like woo-hoo quality that's happening in the body. And then for me, that's part of then what ignites the play 'cause it's just, there's so much aliveness, joy, creative possibilities. And then it's like, "Okay, what are we gonna do with this?" And then, "How much fun could we have?" And that's, it's just sort of the water I swim in. [laughs]

   9. TFTim Ferriss34:41

      [laughs] Has it always been that way? Is this Diana out of the box, or is it something that either you've, you've trained more in yourself or that you've seen people train effectively, right, in terms of turning the tide? Because I'm sure you have a lot of clients, I have to imagine, who are doing therapy, coaching, medicine work, et cetera, and they're like, "God, I just need more play. I just need more play." And it's like, okay, well, now what, right? [laughs]

   10. DCDiana Chapman35:11

       Well, I might say, let's play with the fact that you need more play. Like, can we make that bigger? "Oh, I need more play. Oh, God." You know, like-

   11. TFTim Ferriss35:19

       Yeah

   12. DCDiana Chapman35:19

       ... I, I tend to say let's exaggerate everything 'cause that's one of the easiest, quickest forms of play is exaggerate where you're at.

   13. TFTim Ferriss35:26

       Huh.

   14. DCDiana Chapman35:26

       So make wherever you're at bigger. And so if it's like, "I can't play. It's so hard for me to play," I go, "Okay, well, let's play with that." Make that bigger until all of a sudden now you're kinda giggling 'cause it seems funny.

   15. TFTim Ferriss35:37

       Mm-hmm.

   16. DCDiana Chapman35:37

       And then you just played. So exaggeration is one of my favorite ways. So when it, when I am coaching people and they're in some place that they say they don't wanna be in, I say, "Well, then let's make it bigger wherever you're at." And then it always pops them through.

   17. TFTim Ferriss35:52

       [laughs] I like that. [laughs]

8. 35:58 – 43:02

   Loving Pressure and Candor in Relationships

   1. TFTim Ferriss35:58

      Loving pressure. Let's talk about loving pressure. That was a term that Jim sent over. Bringing loving pressure to relationships. She's a genius at bringing the right balance of pressure, kick you, in parentheses, kick you in the ass and love, in parentheses, support, understanding, empathy. And as a result, she's a black belt in practicing candor. So this is something that has always struck me in our interactions. And, uh, I, this is not gonna be a perfect segue, but I have to bring this up because who knows if what I wrote for the notebook will ever see the light of day. I hope it will. Maybe in a, a blog post or an article at some point. But could you please, and you may [laughs] could you please describe the voice ... mail message that you had some years ago. Do you know the one I'm talking about?

   2. DCDiana Chapman36:44

      Yeah. Yeah

   3. TFTim Ferriss36:45

      [laughs]

   4. DCDiana Chapman36:45

      It, it was something like, um, "Hi, you've reached Diana. I may or may not respond to this call, and I'm gonna just listen to, you know, if I feel called I will, and if I don't, I won't." And

   5. TFTim Ferriss36:59

      [laughs]

   6. DCDiana Chapman36:59

      It was, it was, uh, [laughs] you know, just very much of a, "I'm gonna listen in and decide whether I'll call you back and when I'll call you back." And so it was just basically saying, "Don't have any expectations."

   7. TFTim Ferriss37:11

      [laughs] So your, your candor has-

   8. DCDiana Chapman37:16

      [laughs]

   9. TFTim Ferriss37:16

      ... has, has really jumped out as this sort of defining characteristic of Diana for me. So that's sort of the end of this bullet that's in front of me, but how, how should people think of loving pressure? Uh, because I find myself flip-flopping often between two polar extremes. This is especially noticeable in my intimate relationships where either I'm like the hard-ass, like, Olympic coach, [laughs] I'm kind of like the coach in the Disney movie Miracle, if anyone's seen that, in ice hockey, or I am, from my perspective, extremely permissive and overly supportive to the point of subjugating my own feelings. It's not entirely dishonest, but I'm kind of disavowing part of me to be really, really supportive. And this is especially true with my girlfriend, where there are times to, I've learned, I think this is important, there are times for me to listen to listen for her to feel heard, and then there are times for me to listen to help with problem-solving, and it's very good for me to clarify which she wants in advance. [laughs] But h- how do you think about loving pressure and bringing that to relationships?

   10. DCDiana Chapman38:48

       Well, again, I think in order to do that well, you have to be connected to your head, your heart, and your gut. That's certainly been really clear to me, that I have to be fully present to know, then, what's the balance of challenge and nurturing. So for example, I had a guy who called me recently who was wanting to know if we could work together, and he was very, very depressed. And I was asking him questions and, uh, he was really stuck, and he had a lot of critical thoughts about himself, and he couldn't get motivated to do anything. And, um, I said, y- you know, I asked him about therapy. He said, "Yeah, I've been in therapy for a year." And I said, "Okay, you need to fire your therapist." [laughs]

   11. TFTim Ferriss39:27

       [laughs]

   12. DCDiana Chapman39:28

       So I, I said, uh, " 'Cause you got a lot of stories in your head that you're believing and, um, nobody's challenging you." And the guy stood up, like he sat up really straight and I felt him, like, pop out of some haze he was in. Like, the challenger so woke something in him. And so my, you know, story I always make up about that guy is he was just getting so nurtured, but nobody was bringing the challenge that could help him break out of the s- state he was in. And so, uh, you know, I just knew that because... And I, and I was thoughtful of, from my own presence here, of what do I need to say to this guy that he can hear I care about him, but I also say, "Cut it out," 'cause where you're-

   13. TFTim Ferriss40:08

       Right

   14. DCDiana Chapman40:08

       ... how you're organizing yourself here isn't gonna take you to this new place you wanna go. And he was really grateful. Uh, and he said, "Thank you. I, I really hear you that I need to, I need to question these beliefs I'm holding." So that's my practice over and over again, is being able to listen to my body. I was with another conversation the other day and people were talking about their opinions about the world and I just said, "Hey, I notice I'm contracting. My body's contracting as I hear you guys talking." And that's all I had to say. It was just, "I'm just gonna report what's happening over here," and it was a form of challenge to them. And they went, "Wow, you know, you're right. We're really in some fear-based thinking here." So my body helps. Just sometimes I just report, "I notice I'm bored," or, "I notice I'm withdrawing," or, "I notice I'm getting confused," or, "I notice I'm contracting." Those are ways I might just express a little pressure by just revealing what's here and-

   15. TFTim Ferriss41:05

       Mm-hmm

   16. DCDiana Chapman41:05

       ... not making it mean anything, but just saying, "Here's what's happening. Maybe this is about, you know, something I don't know about yet, but let me just tell you what's happening." I don't think we do that enough with each other.

   17. TFTim Ferriss41:16

       So let me ask a question about that example. So y- there are some folks talking about whatever they were talking about and some kind of fear-based, or what they recognized as fear-based thinking in conversation, and you say, "I'm noticing that I'm feeling contracted."

   18. DCDiana Chapman41:36

       Mm-hmm.

   19. TFTim Ferriss41:36

       "I just want to let you guys know."

   20. DCDiana Chapman41:38

       Mm-hmm.

   21. TFTim Ferriss41:39

       And they responded constructively.

   22. DCDiana Chapman41:41

       These are people I know well, and we know, we play a similar game.

   23. TFTim Ferriss41:45

       You've agreed to this type of interaction.

   24. DCDiana Chapman41:48

       Yes. [laughs] They would not-

   25. TFTim Ferriss41:49

       Right

   26. DCDiana Chapman41:49

       ... I would not do this with just anybody.

   27. TFTim Ferriss41:51

       Okay. [laughs]

   28. DCDiana Chapman41:51

       Yes. [laughs]

   29. TFTim Ferriss41:52

       Okay. So what would you do if, if you were in a mixed group or with people who have not agreed or made the commitments, right? And, uh, we could talk more about the 15 Commitments and commitments in general. But is there a way that you can give voice to that with people who perhaps don't have the same playbook in front of them?

   30. DCDiana Chapman42:14

       Sure. I might say something like, "So what I hear is you, you wanna be, you know, you, you believe you're right that X, Y, Z is occurring. And that could be true, and I'm just wondering if you're open to another possibility that maybe it's not as true as you think." So I might just gently bring a little challenger of asking them to consider that there might be another option. That's another form of how we challenge each other-
9. 43:02 – 53:52

   Byron Katie's The Work: Questioning a Belief

   1. TFTim Ferriss43:02

      When you're working with a client, and I'm coming back to the initial quote that I read, uh, from, from Dustin. "So she has a gift as a coach," she meaning you, "has a gift for guiding me through introspection on the stories I create about events and people in a structured way that inevitably leads to perspective shifts." Could you walk us through how you might do that with someone? For instance, this guy who was depressed, and he says, "You know what? You're right. My therapist sucks."

   2. DCDiana Chapman43:32

      [laughs]

   3. TFTim Ferriss43:32

      "I'm, I'm being handled with kid gloves, but that's making me remain a kid."

   4. DCDiana Chapman43:35

      Yeah.

   5. TFTim Ferriss43:36

      "So I, I could use like a, you know, occasional slap in the face from someone who's, who's very supportive and challenging." And you say, "Okay, great."

   6. DCDiana Chapman43:46

      Yeah.

   7. TFTim Ferriss43:47

      So from that point then, what do you do with those stories and this person?

   8. DCDiana Chapman43:51

      I'm a huge fan of Byron Katie, and I really love her work, and I do the work with myself, and I do the work with my clients. And I say, "Okay, is it true? Is it true, this thing you believe? Can you absolutely know it's true?" And, you know, I'm wise enough now to know I can't absolutely know anything. And then what's it like when you do really believe you're right? And I help people find there's always some suffering. And then what would it be like if you just couldn't believe it? And people find, "Oh, that's nice. [laughs] That feels good." And then, okay, great. Could we just go look at the opposite? You can keep your righteous stories, but can we also ask you to hold the opposites as at least as true so that the mind can get to neutral, and then something else gets to happen.

   9. TFTim Ferriss44:42

      And you're doing that with turnarounds of various types?

   10. DCDiana Chapman44:45

       All the time. I'm constantly asking clients to turn around.

   11. TFTim Ferriss44:49

       Let's pick a hypothetical or a real example, just so people, people can get a flavor of this. So Byron Katie, The Work, I also have found really, uh, really helpful in-

   12. DCDiana Chapman45:03

       Mm-hmm

   13. TFTim Ferriss45:03

       ... a number of cases. And y- she's an unusual, unusual, and powerful woman, uh, to, to put it mildly. So [laughs] so there are times when people will interact and, and, uh, I remember meeting her for the first time, and I was like, "I don't know if I can do what she does." But when you actually work with the worksheets, and people can find this online, a lot of resources are available for free online from Byron Katie. Could you walk through, say, a, a belief, which I think she defines as a thought we take to be true, or something along those lines, an example of a belief and then what... how you would do turnarounds on that belief and walk somebody through that?

   14. DCDiana Chapman45:51

       Well, let's see if we can find something real for y-

   15. TFTim Ferriss45:54

       Okay

   16. DCDiana Chapman45:54

       ... if you're willing to. Like, see if we can find-

   17. TFTim Ferriss45:56

       Sure

   18. DCDiana Chapman45:56

       ... something that's irritated you lately.

   19. TFTim Ferriss45:58

       [laughs]

   20. DCDiana Chapman46:00

       Maybe somebody did something that bugged you, or you're upset about some policy out in the world, or just any place where you notice you get a little triggered.

   21. TFTim Ferriss46:09

       Hmm. [laughs] This, this is more of like a paradox of choice issue [laughs] than anything else for me. Let me see.

   22. DCDiana Chapman46:18

       If not, I can find one. I, my, I always have judgments, so I can find something over here.

   23. TFTim Ferriss46:22

       Well, I'll tell you, this is, I, my relationship... We'll, we'll, we'll actually use one that relates to the client you mentioned. So I have had extended depressive episodes the majority of my life, and so I have a lot of fear around slipping into depressive episodes and have viewed that, whether it's now, whether it's a week from now, whether it's a year, whether it's five years from now, as inevitable.

   24. DCDiana Chapman46:53

       Okay.

   25. TFTim Ferriss46:54

       Right? And scary and dangerous. So let's use that somehow.

   26. DCDiana Chapman46:59

       Okay, and it sounds like the judgment might, might be something like, "I shouldn't slip into depression or depressive episodes." Is that right?

   27. TFTim Ferriss47:06

       Mm-hmm. Yeah. Exactly. I shouldn't, it's dangerous, et cetera. Mm-hmm.

   28. DCDiana Chapman47:12

       Okay. So which one is it? Is it I shouldn't, or is it it's dangerous? 'Cause it sounds like that one kind of lit up for you. It's dangerous if I go into a depressive episode.

   29. TFTim Ferriss47:20

       Yeah, I think, yeah, that's-

   30. DCDiana Chapman47:21

       Yeah
10. 53:52 – 1:08:49

    Turnarounds, Evidence, and Walking the Line

    1. DCDiana Chapman53:52

       So then the next step is we don't want you to get rid of, "It could be dangerous," 'cause, I don't know, maybe it could, but we wanna help you come back to recognizing that the opposite is at least as true, that it doesn't have to be dangerous. So we're gonna have you go, "It's not dangerous going into a depressive state," is at least as true. Can you give me a real example, one that, not just your head, but your heart and your body, like there's something that your whole system goes, "Ah, okay, I can see how it's true that it doesn't have to be dangerous if I go into a depressive state." Can you give me real evidence of how that could be at least as true?

    2. TFTim Ferriss54:34

       Uh, so doing two, I'm doing two things here. I'm, I'm doing the exercise with you, and I'm also sort of providing an overlay for people listening.

    3. DCDiana Chapman54:42

       Nice.

    4. TFTim Ferriss54:42

       So we're, we just, uh, and please correct me if I'm getting any of this wrong, but what we're doing is we're taking the belief as a statement, and we're starting to play with that sentence and the words in that sentence and how it's constructed, right?

    5. DCDiana Chapman54:58

       Yes.

    6. TFTim Ferriss54:58

       I mean, obviously-

    7. DCDiana Chapman54:58

       Yeah. We're specifically going after the judgment so that your mind judges, "It's gonna be dangerous. If I go into a depressive state, it's gonna be dangerous. I'm right about-

    8. TFTim Ferriss55:06

       Mm-hmm

    9. DCDiana Chapman55:07

       ... how dangerous it's gonna be." So we just wanna go Can we just look at how the opposite's true is it's not gonna be dangerous if you go into a depressive state

    10. TFTim Ferriss55:14

        Yeah. So now we're coming up with evidence for what we're calling the-

    11. DCDiana Chapman55:17

        How is that at least, how is that statement-

    12. TFTim Ferriss55:19

        Right

    13. DCDiana Chapman55:19

        ... it won't be dangerous at least-

    14. TFTim Ferriss55:22

        Mm-hmm

    15. DCDiana Chapman55:22

        ... as true?

    16. TFTim Ferriss55:25

        So I'll start with the pff kind of present tense, the-

    17. DCDiana Chapman55:28

        Mm-hmm

    18. TFTim Ferriss55:28

        ... it isn't dangerous, 'cause the it won't be dangerous is harder for me. But I will say, uh, the fact of the matter is I'm here.

    19. DCDiana Chapman55:37

        Right.

    20. TFTim Ferriss55:37

        And I've had dozens of depressive episodes.

    21. DCDiana Chapman55:40

        Yeah.

    22. TFTim Ferriss55:41

        And I'm still here. So if, if the danger is suicide, at least to this point, it's abundantly clear that that has not happened.

    23. DCDiana Chapman55:54

        Yeah.

    24. TFTim Ferriss55:55

        So-

    25. DCDiana Chapman55:55

        Yeah, and I want you to really get that not just in your head, but I want you to get that in your heart and your body, 'cause I feel you get it intellectually.

    26. TFTim Ferriss56:02

        Yeah.

    27. DCDiana Chapman56:02

        But I really want you to drop down and go, survey says I've been in multiple depressive states and I'm here. It hasn't been dangerous in that-

    28. TFTim Ferriss56:16

        Mm

    29. DCDiana Chapman56:16

        ... I haven't killed myself, if that's what you're calling danger.

    30. TFTim Ferriss56:20

        Yeah, that's the-
11. 1:08:49 – 1:17:06

    Reinventing a Marriage: Diana and Matt

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:08:49

       I, I would like to, if you're open to it, shift a little bit to relationships and I wanna ask you specifically about your partnership with, uh, with Matt. So here's, here's one of your superpowers as listed from Mr. Jim.

    2. DCDiana Chapman1:09:11

       Uh-huh.

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:09:12

       Creating and sustaining a wonderful intimate partnership with Matt, her husband and lover since they were teenagers. Have her talk about the risks she and they were willing to take to keep the relationship alive and vital, growing and intimate. If you are game to talk about that I would be very interested-

    4. DCDiana Chapman1:09:29

       Yeah

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:09:30

       ... to hear more.

    6. DCDiana Chapman1:09:31

       Well, it's a challenge. It's, it's both a great gift to be with a partner since you were young, you get to grow up together. There's a lot of, a lot of, uh, shared memories and shared friends and there's a sweetness that it started out with you get to keep. And there's also a great challenge of the fact that we are different people who evolve and change. And so, uh, several times, at least three key times in our relationship, we've been willing to let it all go and we've basically killed it off. Just said, "The relationship as it was is done. Now let's just check and see is there a relationship, what is the relationship that wants to happen moving forward? Maybe it's just friends, co-parents, maybe it's lovers, staying married. What is it?" And so we have a lot of courage both of us to be willing to let go of what's not working and trust that the right form of the relationship will reveal itself and it just so happens that it continues to be us married. And I think, you know, we, we play around often. Sometimes we'll get up in the morning and I'll say something like, um, "Hey, you wanna be married today?" And he'll say, "Ah, well, what, you know, like what would that mean? What kind of a husband do I need to be?" And we'll giggle and play around with, well, you know, how about this and this and then, and then we choose. And it is, for me we're always choosing over and over again and we always are willing to r- to kind of to the point of, um, using the work with Byron Katie of I'm willing to open to the possibility that not being married is just as okay as being married.

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:11:11

       Mm.

    8. DCDiana Chapman1:11:11

       And what that has created is an incredibly vital, creative, ever-evolving passionate marriage in which we're freed up to keep exploring new ways of, of being together. And I am really proud of my relationship. I think it's one of the greatest things I've ever done is the marriage that I have. I, we get a lot of feedback that it's an inspiring marriage to a lot of people who, uh, look to it. And I do think it comes with the courage to say no.

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:11:45

       You mentioned at f- at least I think you said three times that you've had this type of conversation. I would like to zoom in on the first conversation. Were you both already prepared and trained to initiate that type of conversation? Did one side initiate the, "Hey, let's decide if we want to remain as is or if we want to take one of these other forms"? I'm just wondering for-

    10. DCDiana Chapman1:12:17

        Yeah

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:12:17

        ... people who are listening who have never had one of these conversations, maybe they've been at the breaking point but they've never had this conversation.

    12. DCDiana Chapman1:12:25

        I initiated it. I initiated it. It wasn't Matt's idea. I said, "Hey, I'm, this isn't working for me the way we're in relationship and there's a different kind of a man I wanna be with than, than, uh, than how you are. [laughs] And I want something, I want a, I want an- another possibility." And so it was, I didn't know how to do all this. I was just toddling around trying to figure this out. And, um, I, yeah, I said, "I, I don't wanna do it this way anymore." And so I thought that might mean that we needed to be separated and that we needed to end the marriage. And I was willing to. We actually got some support from counselors about telling our, our kids that we were gonna divorce. 'Cause that's the only direction it seemed like- We were gonna go. And then I had this great advice from a friend who said, "Okay, Diana, you know, I, I love you both. If you think divorce is what needs to happen, that's great. And, but I hear you complaining that there's a certain man you want him to be that he's not." And she said, "Who is the woman you would need to be to call forward that man?"

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:13:41

        Hmm.

    14. DCDiana Chapman1:13:41

        And my stomach dropped.

    15. TFTim Ferriss1:13:43

        [laughs]

    16. DCDiana Chapman1:13:43

        And I thought, "Ugh, I don't wanna... I don't know about that. What?" And, uh, I realized, oh, I would need to be a different woman. So we said, "Let's kill off this old marriage and let's see if we can create a new one, and I'm gonna keep asking myself, 'Who do I need to be to call forward the man I wanna be with?'" And about six months later, I was with the man I wanted to be with, and I remember saying to him, "You really changed." And he said, "No, you really changed." [laughs] And, and the truth is, we both really changed. But I was really grateful for that first conversation of getting, being willing to let it go, and then getting the feedback of, hey, if you're the creator of, of who's showing up over there, who do you need to be? And for many months, I felt like I was gonna throw up 24/7 learning to be a much more vulnerable, needy [laughs] woman who called forward the man who, you know, could protect and, and lead in a way that I hadn't been willing to be in the past.

    17. TFTim Ferriss1:14:53

        Hmm. How did you... Thank you for sharing all this, by the way.

    18. DCDiana Chapman1:14:56

        Mm-hmm.

    19. TFTim Ferriss1:14:57

        And very courageous and vulnerable. And how did you figure out who you needed to be? Who, who that woman was to call forth the version of your husband or the man who you wanted to be with? Did you have help? Did it... Was it obvious once you sat with it in terms of the changes that needed to be made on, on your side or the things you needed to cultivate or drop? How did you arrive at the answers?

    20. DCDiana Chapman1:15:29

        At first, I didn't know. I just knew I was really scared when I asked the question. And so I, I knew that my fear, uh, you know, I, I believe that fear is, when we're present, is an intelligence that says something needs to get learned. Something needs to get learned. So when I had that fear, I thought, "Oh, wow, something needs to get learned. There's... I don't know something here." And so that was my first clue that her question was powerful, is the fear that arose in me. And then I just kept asking the fear, "What needs to be learned?" I just kept being really broad in that curiosity. I got into a state of wonder. I wonder who I would need to be to call forward the man I most wanna be with. I just kept asking that. I wonder. And I let it be okay that I didn't have to know, because I didn't know. I've been, you know, with him for a long time, and I didn't know, so I had to be willing to listen and learn from something greater than my own d- m- my own experience so far. And so it was in that level of curiosity that I just found my way. And it was just baby steps, you know, a little bit here, a little bit there. And that's happened actually several different... We've had several versions of that often. Uh, or not often, but the, the three versions were all some version of me, something needs to get learned for the next evolution here of this relationship.

    21. TFTim Ferriss1:17:06

        Hmm.

12. 1:17:06 – 1:23:46

    Tools for Couples and the 15 Commitments

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:17:06

       Do you have recommended resources or practices that couples can seek out or embrace so that they are better prepared if they get to these decision points? Or, or just overall in, uh, with respect to nurturing sort of a healthy co-created relationship. Are there any, any books, any particular practices that you would highlight for folks?

    2. DCDiana Chapman1:17:42

       Matt and I studied with Gay and Katie Hendricks for years at the Hendricks Institute. They did a lot of relationship work. They still do a bit of it. But I learned so many tools there on how to get off the Drama Triangle. I learned about personas and about how I get caught in these personas that then r- unconsciously require the persona of a, of my partner to show up in a certain way that then I com- then I complain about. And I learned about how to, how to unwind those or shift them when I wanted to. I learned about the importance of feeling my feelings. I learned about letting... You know, really questioning my stories. I learned about polarity and how important it is to honor polarity that shows up in couples and making sure that I honored both sides of the polarity equally. For example, a lot of couples argue about money, and almost always there's one that we call the gas and one who's the brake, and somebody who's more free-flowing with money and somebody who's more controlling about money. And that's a, can we, can we honor these polarities and can we see the value in both of them? Because usually I was the one who wanted to spend the money and, and my husband wanted to control this, you know, ho- hold onto the money. And we would get into a battle about, you know, "You're keeping me from having joy in my life 'cause you're so stingy about money." And he'd say, "You're gonna make us all broke 'cause you're just so, uh, you know, unconscious about spending it." And so honoring that those two sides of the polarity are actually allies that are here to create just the right balance to take care of ourselves and have fun. And so- Those are, those are all different skill sets. There's so many different tools, and I would say that our book, The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership, we wrote it for leaders, but really it could be a perfect guidebook for couples if you just apply couple examples in there, because that's what really created the beautiful relationship that I have are those commitments. And those all have tools and skills that are associated with them.

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:19:48

       Hmm. Uh, could you give us a few examples of some of these commitments? And of course, I, I would recommend people read the book. I think it's, it's very valuable. But can you give us a, a handful of examples of what these commitments are?

    4. DCDiana Chapman1:20:05

       Yeah. The, the first... We, we got a lot of these from Gay and Katie Hendricks. They were the ones, uh, they wrote the first two commitments word for word. And the first two commitments, the first one is all around, "I commit to take radical responsibility for the results in my life." And that's a cornerstone commitment. And, you know, that looks like some guy, uh, who I was coaching the other day called me up and said, "My CEO is not giving me the feedback I need to grow as a leader." And so I had him teach me the class. How do you create the CEO not giving you the feedback you want? He's like, "What? I'm not creating that. [laughs] He's- I'm not the effect of it. He's not giving it to me." I said, "Teach me the class." So he actually thought for a moment and said, "Well, value the CEO's time more than your time. Uh, don't reschedule when the CEO breaks your one-on-one meetings. Don't ask directly for the feedback you want." And he started to giggle and realized, "Oh, I'm, I'm the creator of not getting the feedback I want." That's radical responsibility. So people often, we say the thing you're complaining about is often the thing you're committed to creating, and if you can own that, that's radical. And then the second commitment is all around letting go of, of wanting to be right, and what we mean by that is the defending yourself righteously that keeps you from learning and growing. Those are the two cornerstone commitments, one and two, and I think we even say in the book, like, you could stop right here and just practice these for the rest of your life. But then there's the commitment to really feel feelings, and specifically what I notice, and we talked about this, you and I, a little bit when you were thinking about writing this no book, [laughs] was how much we're trying to control each other feeling feelings. So, like, I don't wanna say no because I don't want you to have a feeling over there, and I really think I'm right, you shouldn't have them, and I don't want you to have a feeling 'cause then maybe I'll have a feeling. And I see how much of our drama in the workplace and at home is coming from suppressing feelings in ourselves and each other. Candor's a commitment to be able to say what's going on rather than, uh, conceal it, which then causes me to have to start to withdraw. And, uh, ending gossip, uh, is another commitment. Really being impeccable around agreements so that I do what I say I'm gonna do is another commitment. Those first six really, that's what we focus a lot in the business world when we come and work with teams. We have them work on those six commitments to help secure the identity and relax drama. And then once that's done, then we have things like, let's look at appreciation, the commitment to appreciate, the commitment to play and rest, the commitment to live in our zones of genius. And then the commitments get even deeper into being the source of approval, control, and security rather than trying to source it outside of yourself, which is probably one of the most difficult commitments of all, and also the commitment of experiencing that you already have enough, which most people also struggle with, especially at least in the business world. I rarely ever come across anybody who has enough time.

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:23:14

       Hmm.

    6. DCDiana Chapman1:23:15

       And then, and then they go on from there, um, to being able to create a win-for-all solution, which is one of my, just one of my great joys, to work with a team where there's a lot of different needs, and it seems like they can't come up with a solution where they all win, and helping them do that. And finally, be the resolution to that which you see missing in the world. So if they're not listening, be a better listener. If they're not taking care of things, take care of things.

13. 1:23:46 – 1:28:34

    Daily Check-In Prompts and Self-Awareness Hiring Questions

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:23:46

       Do you still use or recommend people use Mind Jogger? I read that at least for a period of time you used an app, I believe it was Mind Jogger, that would ask you multiple times a day, "Diana, in this now moment, are you above the line or below the line?"

    2. DCDiana Chapman1:24:06

       I still use it. I use it every day. And I ask that basic question, where are you? Are you above the line, meaning are you in a state of trust, or are you below the line in a state of threat? So I ask that s- I have it seven times randomly per day. It pops on my screen, and I pause and look and check. That's, uh, just like, it's like, for me, it's like lifting weights every day. So that's one. And then I use other questions that I rotate around. Like one I'm really liking right now is, is this exquisite? Diana, is this m- moment exquisite? And then it gives me a pause to think about how could this be more exquisite.

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:24:49

       Hmm. What does that mean to you?

    4. DCDiana Chapman1:24:51

       Exquisite is whole-body yes to me. You know?

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:24:54

       Hmm.

    6. DCDiana Chapman1:24:54

       Is this a whole-body yes? Is this ahh? Is this yes, I'm in my zone, I feel fully alive, I'm, I'm doing what I most wanna be doing, I'm on purpose?

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:25:06

       Hmm. What other, what other prompts do you have, or do any others come to mind?

    8. DCDiana Chapman1:25:11

       Oh, yeah. I've got... I mean, I go, I have a question for each of the commitments, so I rotate them around. Like, what are you feeling right now? So if I need-

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:25:19

       Hmm

    10. DCDiana Chapman1:25:19

        ... to keep checking in with my feeling states. Another one would be, what do you appreciate about somebody around you right now? And then I'll use that as an opportunity to speak that out loud, um, because I'm really a big fan of lots and lots of appreciation. A- another one, do I have enough time right now? I use that one. Are you experiencing enough time right now as a way to c- pause and go, "Oh, good. That's g- I'm so glad I asked myself that question because I can feel I'm in a scarcity of time, and let me stop and pause and get back-

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:25:47

        Mm

    12. DCDiana Chapman1:25:47

        ... into the present moment where there's always enough."

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:25:51

        If you could email those, those questions/prompts that you have for each commitment, be- I, I would love to... I just downloaded Mind Jogger this morning. I would love to start playing with those if you're open to it.

    14. DCDiana Chapman1:26:05

        Oh, yeah. Absolutely, yeah.

    15. TFTim Ferriss1:26:08

        Maybe we could put them in the show notes as well, and that way people can, can find them for themselves. I have to say, you know, I, I really think you are a master of prompts and questions, and, uh, we, we don't have to go through it at length. I was actually gonna read every single bullet. I'm not gonna do that because it'll take a bit of time. But you have a piece on LinkedIn. It's an article called How to Assess Self-Awareness in a Hiring Interview. Now, people might hear that and say, "Why the hell are you bringing that up? It sounds so niche. It sounds so specific. It's only gonna apply to 3% of your listenership." But it's a great example of questions and prompts for uncommon insight. I really just... I, I, I was, I was very impressed with the questions. I'll give just a few examples. Uh, describe a time when you were tempted to blame someone else for something but instead resolved it by owning part of the issue, right? What percentage of agreements do you currently keep with the people you live and work with? What causes you to break agreements the most? [laughs] How do you approach broken agreements? I mean, these are outstanding questions. Not just, by the way, for hiring people. [laughs]

    16. DCDiana Chapman1:27:26

        Right.

    17. TFTim Ferriss1:27:27

        But I found these, these questions and prompts to be outstanding. So I will also link to those in the show notes and people will be able to find, find that article.

    18. DCDiana Chapman1:27:37

        Well, my clients were asking me, "Hey, how do we interview if we want people who wanna come and be in a part of a culture that doesn't have as much drama? What should we be asking that would make sure that we knew they were a good fit for the culture we're creating here?" And so that was what caused me to put those questions together.

    19. TFTim Ferriss1:27:57

        Hm.

    20. DCDiana Chapman1:27:58

        And I use them myself. You know, we were just, we just did a couple of big hires at The Conscious Leadership Group, and we almost exclusively focused on self-awareness and people's ability to have candor, take responsibility, keep their agreements as, as the, one of the primary things we were looking at because, you know, they were already very successful candidates, so we knew they were, they'd had a great pedigree already. So we wanted to make sure they were a good culture fit 'cause we're really committed to no, no or very little drama in our workplace.

    21. TFTim Ferriss1:28:32

        Hm.

14. 1:28:34 – 1:34:07

    Book Recommendations and Closing Thoughts on Drama

    1. TFTim Ferriss1:28:34

       Diana, uh, we could go for hours and hours and hours. We might just have to do a round two sometime. I'd, I'd love to, just 'cause I'm curious, quite frankly, to know, uh, what books outside of The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership have you gifted the most to other people? Or gifted a lot. Doesn't have to be the most, but what book, what books have you gifted a fair amount to people?

    2. DCDiana Chapman1:28:56

       The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks is probably the book I've, um, gifted the most and the one I've recommended the most of any other book. And also, uh, Conscious Loving for Couples, 'cause you asked that question earlier. Conscious Loving I think is a fantastic book for couples who are wanting to, uh, get more, um, connected, um, is another one I've gifted a lot. And, um, yeah, those are the, those are the two that come top of mind.

    3. TFTim Ferriss1:29:28

       The two primaries. For people who just want a preview, what is The Big Leap about, or what is it for?

    4. DCDiana Chapman1:29:36

       The Big Leap is all about learning to live in your zone of genius, which I think is just the most fun thing, and to take a look at what are the things that keep us from living in our zone of genius. And so I, um, I, I tell every leader I coach to get it, and it's... 100% of them have said it was a valuable read. And Gay has just come up with a, a follow-up book on zone of genius that just came out last month that I imagine will be another book I'll be recommending and gifting. Because I find that inside of all of us is some creativity that, like, when we are in that place, time and space go away. It's so fun and makes life so worth living, and I really am excited about supporting people and living as much as possible in that zone of genius.

    5. TFTim Ferriss1:30:29

       Well, I think you do a, a damn fine job of it. It's been fun to get to know you. It's been fun to also get to know you in this chat a bit more and doing homework. It's always fun to do research on friends, which would otherwise be super creepy and, like, Google stalking, but-

    6. DCDiana Chapman1:30:45

       [laughs]

    7. TFTim Ferriss1:30:45

       ... I have a pretext and excuse, which is doing interviews. And people can find The Conscious Leadership Group at conscious.is, and certainly all the social and so on can be found from that jumping-off point. You also have a lot of PDFs and resources for people on the website, so I encourage people to check out that website. We'll link to that. We'll link to prompts. We'll link to everything that we discussed in the show notes at tim.blog/podcast. Diana, is there anything else that you would like to say or ask, any request of the audience, anything at all that you'd like to add before we come to a close?

    8. DCDiana Chapman1:31:24

       Hmm. That's a great question. Let me see. I wanna sit with that because I think that's... I think, um- I feel, I feel pretty heartbroken these days about, um, the drama that is happening amongst us. And I'm actually grateful for the heartbreak because it's helping me connect more with, um, with love. Uh, and one of the things I'm doing is facing. I'm really facing the cost of the drama that we're having. And so I think one of the things I most hope people will do is have the courage to face the cost of the drama that we are creating in our workplaces that has people so overwhelmed at work, the cost politically, uh, environmentally, and that they're willing to face it, feel that, let their hearts break wide open, and then from that place, get curious and excited about what else could we create together. What else is possible? 'Cause that really excites me, and I think that, um, I'm not, I don't wanna argue with the way the world is. It's just fine the way it is. And I have a preference for a lot more play and creativity and togetherness and, and curiosity that, um, that I find when we drop the drama.

    9. TFTim Ferriss1:32:53

       Hmm. That is an excellent place to close, and what, what a enjoyable and, uh, I think very helpful for me conversation. So thank you very much, Diana, for, for making the time and being so present. Thank you.

    10. DCDiana Chapman1:33:12

        Uh, my, my great pleasure. I'm, I'm so grateful for all the ways you go out into the world and bring forward, um, things that help people live more, uh, connected and valuable lives. And it is one of the things that I believe your depression has been a great gift, is I don't know that you would have done this if you hadn't have had the depressions that you had and needed to find the tools-

    11. TFTim Ferriss1:33:38

        Yeah

    12. DCDiana Chapman1:33:38

        ... that you needed. So I'm grateful for your depression and, uh-

    13. TFTim Ferriss1:33:43

        [laughs]

    14. DCDiana Chapman1:33:44

        ... and, um, and for your own unique journey that has now enhanced so many of ours. So, so thank you so much.

    15. TFTim Ferriss1:33:53

        Oh, thank you so much, Diana. I really appreciate it. Thank you. And for everybody listening, stay strong, get curious. Check out the show notes at tim.blog/podcast. And until next time, thank you for tuning in

Episode duration: 1:34:29